Circumcision

[Shamed Sinner]

If god doesn't want children to have a foreskin then why does he make them with one and command the parents to cut it off?

 

[TaylorSexton]

Where do you see in Scripture where believers are commanded to be circumcised?

 

[Greg J.]

Whether someone chooses to retain or cut off his (or his children's) foreskin means nothing. God cares about your heart and the hearts of your children and fellow followers. (Do you yield to God's Lordship, for example.)

 

[Shamed Sinner]

Where do you see in Scripture where believers are commanded to be circumcised?

Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant,V)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;"> you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.W)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;"> 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.X)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;"> 11 You are to undergo circumcision,Y)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;"> and it will be the sign of the covenantZ)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;"> between me and you. 12 For the generations to comeAA)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;"> every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised,AB)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;">including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised.AC)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;"> My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.AD)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;">14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcisedAE)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;"> in the flesh, will be cut off from his people;AF)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;"> he has broken my covenant.AG)" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; vertical-align: top;">”

 

[PollyJetix]

The Old Covenant seal was circumcision.
New Covenant circumcision is of the heart.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If god doesn't want children to have a foreskin then why does he make them with one and command the parents to cut it off?

Hello, Shamed, and welcome to CF, and to Traditional Theology.

It is not a matter of God not wanting males to have a foreskin. It served as a sign of the Old Covenant, made with Abraham.

We as Christians are part of the New Covenant, so this is in no way binding upon us. People may choose to circumcise or not, based on other reasons. But if someone thinks it is necessary to be circumcised in order to be made right with God, that is an attempt to put oneself back within the Old Covenant, and is forbidden by the Apostles as a form of Judaizing.

I hope this helps. And again, welcome!



edited to fix unfortunate typo - apologies to all!

 

[Soyeong]

The Old Covenant seal was circumcision.
New Covenant circumcision is of the heart.

The way to tell that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's Law (Romans 2:26), which is the same for a Jew:

Deuteronomy 30:6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[Soyeong]

If god doesn't want children to have a foreskin then why does he make them with one and command the parents to cut it off?

The issue is not that God has something against children having foreskins, but what is important is what the removal of the foreskin symbolizes.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Circumsicion is up to each of us. Its not required. Some do it to please God. Some do it just to feel closer to God as an act of... not sure the word. My dad had it done as a kid. They did it to me. I may do it to my child. Though my reason mainly is for health benefits. Though when talking about the issue there will be argument about the health end of it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This thread might be better placed in General Theolgy, btw. There really is no connection to Traditional Theology, except to understand what the Apostles said about not requiring Gentile believers to be circumcised.

 

[All4Christ]

Traditional Churches follow the results of the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15:

The Council at Jerusalem
15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised,according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and eldersabout this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted.This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me.14 Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’[b]—
18 things known from long ago.[c]

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antiochwith Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.23 With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syriaand Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.

30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32 Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets,said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. 33 After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. [34] [d]35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.

 

[gordonhooker]

This thread might be better placed in General Theolgy, btw. There really is no connection to Traditional Theology, except to understand what the Apostles said about not requiring Gentile believers to be circumcised.

Hmmmm I would have thought that was pretty traditional given it was the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem made the call (Acts 15) that circumcision was not necessary for Gentiles.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hmmmm I would have thought that was pretty traditional given it was the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem made the call (Acts 15) that circumcision was not necessary for Gentiles.

Yes, that was what I was referring to, in saying what Tradition has to say on the matter.

Call it a preemptive statement ... what I meant is that if people wish to go beyond what the Council of Acts said, it would better to move it, so that they are not violating the SOP without realizing it. And also so that those who are interested in a Traditinal viewpoint not be confused about what that would be. It's always a concern in TT.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The Old Covenant seal was circumcision.
New Covenant circumcision is of the heart.

Baptism actually is the sign of the new covenant.

 

[miknik5]

If god doesn't want children to have a foreskin then why does he make them with one and command the parents to cut it off?

It was a mark of obedience to the covenant PROMISE

 

[miknik5]

The issue is not that God has something against children having foreskins, but what is important is what the removal of the foreskin symbolizes.

there are those who are outwardly circumcised but not inwardly circumcised
And there are those who are inwardly circumcised but not outwardly circumcised

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

This brings a whole new meaning to "Sorry, but you didn't make the cut!". Sorry, pun was in my head!

 

[miknik5]

This brings a whole new meaning to "Sorry, but you didn't make the cut!". Sorry, pun was in my head!

Look at Moses who didn't circumcise his son along the WAY

GOD wasnt very happy about it
And look at his wife's response when she in obedience circumcised their son

Look what she said:

Are you not a bridegroom of blood to me

 

[Soyeong]

there are those who are outwardly circumcised but not inwardly circumcised
And there are those who are inwardly circumcised but not outwardly circumcised

Indeed. According to Paul, circumcision has much value in every way (Romans 3:1-2) and circumcision has no value, what matters is keeping the Mosaic Law (1 Corinthians 7:19), so the value of circumcision is entirely dependent on whether someone keeps the Law (Romans 2:25). The way to tell that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law (Romans 2:26), which is the same way to tell that a Jew has a circumcised heart (Deuteronomy 30:6).

 

[~Anastasia~]

In our Tradition, we understand the Apostolic council to not require Gentiles to keep the Mosaic Law.

Acts 15
New American Standard Bible
The Council at Jerusalem

5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying,
"It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses” 6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” 12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. 14“Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,

16‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,

17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’

18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
19“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23and they sent this letter by them,

“The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

24“Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27“Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”
30So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. 32Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message.