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Circumcision?

Tea

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I was thinking more along the lines of them accidently lopping the whole thing off. :doh:

Which is why the onus is on every parent who chooses to go down the path of circumcision, to make sure that whoever is doing it, has years of experience, and that circ'ing is something that they do regularly.
Tracey
 
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Mama_Piadosa

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Taken from another board with permission:

Over 80% of the world is intact.

This is an excellent movie (done by doctors opposing circumcision) about foreskin’s
purpose and harm of circumcision.
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...o/prepuce.html

Even a perfectly performed circumcision does life-long harm.

1. It removes the most sensitive parts of the penis (Ridged band and often it also removes Frenulum).
2. The glans (penile head) is normally an internal organ protected by the moist mucosal tissue of the prepuce (foreskin). Without the foreskin, the glans is exposed to the outer environment (air, soap, clothing, sun, etc.). The glans dries out and develops several extra layers of skin (keratinization). Besides removing the densely nerve-laden foreskin, circumcision removes 50% of the penile shaft skin and associated nerve endings. The exposed glans then keratinizes, causing further loss of sensation.
Imagine how different female sexual response would be if the clitoral hood (female foreskin) was removed. Exposure of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to the constant effects of the outer environment would approximate the effects of male circumcision.
Please take a look at a recent sensitivity study published in the BJU International (British Journal of Urology) in April 2007.This study was the first time that the intact and circumcised penis were thoroughly, systematically and scientifically tested for sensitivity. The testing method was monofilament testing, the same method used in assessing peripheral neuropathy, such as lack of feeling in the feet of diabetics. The resulting measurements of sensitivity are quantifiable and reproducible. The study was submitted for peer review before being approved for publication.

The study's objective: to map the fine-touch pressure thresholds of the adult penis in circumcised and uncircumcised men, and to compare the two populations.

The conclusion, from the abstract: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.
Full text of the study (pdf), http://www.icgi.org/touch-test/touch-test-article.pdf
Graphs illustrating the comparison findings http://www.icgi.org/touch-test/

3. Moisturizing the glans is another important function of foreskin. Once removed, the skin of glans gets dry which most of the time leads to inability to have sex/masturbation without an artificial lubricant. On the other hand intact men do not need it at all. Foreskin slides up and down the shaft of the penis providing an easy and smooth penetration, lubrication and additional pleasure for both partners.

4. The pain during circumcision is truly agonizing.
Do you know how they circumcise newborns? First, because the foreskin is attached to the glans exactly like the fingernail is attached to the finger, they have to rip open those adhesions. They force a blunt probe under the foreskin and run it all around. Think about how that would feel under your fingernails and add on it that foreskin is the most sensitive part of the body. Then they slice open the foreskin and peel it away from the glans. Then they put a clamp on and crush the foreskin to halt the worst of the bleeding. Then they take a scalpel and slice the foreskin off. Oh, and by the way, did you know that over 85% of neonatal circumcisions in the US are still being preformed without any/adequate anesthesia?
If one wants to put their baby through this nightmare, they at least must have guts to see how the procedure is being done. As you can see on this video, the doctor claims that he uses anesthesia…well, make sure your speakers are on! http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...27632617&hl=en

There has been actually a study that was stopped before being completed due to too much trauma to babies http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9712/23/ci...on.anesthetic/ .

There has been another study that was comparing pain sensitivity in newborn vs. adults. The results were quite shocking! Newborn indeed don’t feel pain the way adults do. They feel it 1. more intense; 2. on a larger area and 3. for a longer period of time!

Lucky babies would pass out being unable to coop with such intense pain; not lucky ones will not and will go through the whole agony all the way.

There has been also a study that proved that intact boys and girls have higher thresholds of pain than circumcised boys. It was published in the Lancet (British medical journal) in 1997.

While permanent psychological impact of circumcision is still mostly unknown, it’s logical to assume that just like any extremely painful and traumatic event—even if forgotten—it can lead to a permanent emotional/psychological scar/damage.

Even a perfectly performed circumcision does not guarantee that a person will not have more serious (beyond the mentioned above) problems in his future sexual life. Such problems as, for example, too tight (sometimes even painful) erections can be due to removal of too much foreskin and whatever left over just not enough to accommodate a normal erection are much more common than many people think since it’s nearly impossible to know for sure how much is “too much” until the penis reaches its full-grown size. Removal of too much foreskin can also lead to a shaft of the penis being hairy (it pulls skin from above to more or less accommodate an erection).

Doctors Opposing Circumcision warns (23 October, 2005) that the risk of Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus (MRSA) is now too great to allow non-medically indicated circumcision to continue: ... The advent of MRSA in epidemic proportions increases risks associated with male neonatal circumcision beyond those previously contemplated and further increases the desirability of the non-circumcision option. MRSA and other antibiotic-resistant varieties of SA, such as vancomycin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (VRSA), increase risk, including death, to newborn circumcised boys. In view of this increased risk, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists should review their policy (2002) of offering elective medically unnecessary non-therapeutic neonatal circumcision at parental request.
... Medical practitioners must consider the epidemic status of MRSA and exercise their independent judgment regarding the performance of non-therapeutic neonatal circumcision. There is an ethical duty to not perform scientifically invalid medical treatment, especially when it puts the patient at risk. Doctors must act in the best interests of their child-patients regardless of parental requests. Doctors may conscientiously object to the performance of non-therapeutic circumcision of children.
Complete text: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi.../DOC/mrsa.html

As any surgery, circumcision may have some very serious (even life threatening) complications. http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/complications.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/ . Of course, the most horrible complication is death and there were quite few of them as well (here is the most recent one http://healthblog.ctv.ca/blog/_archi...2/2967860.html ; and I’m talking about reported deaths only; god knows what the real number of circumcision victims is.

Worth while mentioning most recent scientists discovery that Langerhans cells that are present in the foreskin are behave as ‘natural barrier’ to HIV.
Bellow are the links.

http://www.womenshealth.gov/news/english/602421.htm
http://body.aol.com/news/articles/_a...28234109990019
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030500357.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=17334373

Another study shows no HIV protection from circumcision
http://www.jaids.org/pt/re/jaids/abs...195628!8091!-1

Outside of Israel, the U.S. is the 2nd highest circumcising country in the world and after Africa, has the 2nd highest infection rate. Plus the fact that more than 80% of the world's men are "uncircumcised" and countries in Europe have an extremely low HIV+ rate.
Important to mention that circumcision scars may cause cancer:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3944860

The tumors involved the prepuce (n = 1), prepuce and distal shaft (n = 1), circumcision scar line (n = 2), circumcision scar line and distal shaft
http://www.ajsp.com/pt/re/ajsp/abstr...195629!8091!-1


As you can see,God designed a man’s body to be just as perfect as it can! And why would anyone want to rip off their child from all these benefits of having a whole perfectly functioning body remains a big mystery for me.
 
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seamonster

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I have a question for those of you who say that circumcision hurts "more" when the person is older. What makes you feel that way? Is it just the fact that the guy can tell you "this hurts" and a baby only cries? I'm NOT being rude or mean, I honestly am curious as to why you feel this way, since it seems to me that it would hurt regardless of the age, and less so when general anesthesia is available. :scratch:
 
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seamonster

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Not to play the devil's advocate here but I'm sure that you could probably find an equally convincing "report," if you will, for the benefits of circumcising.

Do you have any articles, books, or medical journals in mind? I've actually been trying to find something that supports circumcision but have been unable to find anything on the "benefits." Any information you've found would be very helpful and I'd love to read it. Thanks!
 
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jgonz

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Mama_Piadosa, I have to admit that I'm offended by some of those links. They make it sound like circumcision is mutilation and I do not believe that At All.

There are very valid, educated reasons for circumcision and it's a Personal and Private Decision that each family needs to make for themselves. Your post borders on calling pro-circ parents abusers. "Even a perfectly performed circumsion causes life-long harm"??? My DH begs to differ.
 
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jgonz

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Do you have any articles, books, or medical journals in mind? I've actually been trying to find something that supports circumcision but have been unable to find anything on the "benefits." Any information you've found would be very helpful and I'd love to read it. Thanks!

Seamonster, I found this website on pro-circumcision. I have Not read the entire site... so I can't unconditionally recommend it, but from what I Did read, it looked pretty good. http://www.circinfo.net/
 
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CelticRose

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Because the medical profession is anti circing at present information on the benefits is bound to be scant ~ & anti circ is from the same medical people who are rather pro routine cesars. Sorry, but I'm more than a little sceptical.

Our family doc's husband was a medical doc in 'Nam & the stories he told my dh of the soldiers having to be circed while serving their country were too horrific for dh to share with me but bad enough he was insistant all our boys be done.

Besides Mary & Joseph had Jesus done on the 8th day in accordance with the Jewish law & if it was good enough for the son of God I truely don't have a problem.
 
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jessesgirl

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I have a question for those of you who say that circumcision hurts "more" when the person is older. What makes you feel that way? Is it just the fact that the guy can tell you "this hurts" and a baby only cries? I'm NOT being rude or mean, I honestly am curious as to why you feel this way, since it seems to me that it would hurt regardless of the age, and less so when general anesthesia is available. :scratch:
My thought is that it is kinda like getting your tonsils out. If they HAVE to come out, it is best to have it done when the kids are young and they "bounce back," if you will. Jess had three different specialists tell him that with his. I know we are talking tonsils vs. penises but it is the same concept. What was a 2-3 day recovery for me at age five with tonsils being removed, it was nearly a month for Jess to recover @ 25. Kids just bounce back faster.
 
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Hadassah

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I have a question for those of you who say that circumcision hurts "more" when the person is older. What makes you feel that way? Is it just the fact that the guy can tell you "this hurts" and a baby only cries? I'm NOT being rude or mean, I honestly am curious as to why you feel this way, since it seems to me that it would hurt regardless of the age, and less so when general anesthesia is available. :scratch:
Vitamin K, what clots the blood and the baby's testosterone levels are the highest they'll be in his first 8 days... so when the circumcision is done, there is more of a 'rush to repair' by the body when done on the day commanded in Scripture. A general anesthetic and/or a drop of wine are provided when the procedure is done quickly and efficiently, taking less than 5 minutes.

As an adult, one has to undergo rigerous testing prior to being approved for circumcision. Here in Germany, psychologically as much as physically (no idea why, but whatever)... They'll yank and pull on the intact organ to make sure you're not lying and they cause considerable pain in the exams to prove what you've said about things growing together or otherwise not 'being right' is correct and that it is a medical necessity.

then they work on the general anesthesia, but the only 'pain killer' for the swelling afterwards that lasts about a week to two weeks can only be handled by being really still, TLC and ICE. You end up with an erection that just lasts 'forever' and hurts. (Words of my DH and other relative) I cannot begin to tell you how much he has explained it hurts and hurts and hurts and HURTS.

Babies, if the circ is done correctly do not have that. It swells if I recall correctly at max a couple of days (done in hospital not by mohel and not on day 8)... and no erection going on - loads less painful there.

I believe it also depends on who does the surgery and how much is having to be removed. Done traditionally, not as much as is done usually in hospital is removed.

That's about all I can comment on for now, I've a doc appt I'm due for in a few minutes.
 
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OrangeRose

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Mama_Piadosa, I have to admit that I'm offended by some of those links. They make it sound like circumcision is mutilation and I do not believe that At All.

There are very valid, educated reasons for circumcision and it's a Personal and Private Decision that each family needs to make for themselves. Your post borders on calling pro-circ parents abusers. "Even a perfectly performed circumsion causes life-long harm"??? My DH begs to differ.

I agree. You have your rep button off :sigh:
 
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seamonster

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Seamonster, I found this website on pro-circumcision. I have Not read the entire site... so I can't unconditionally recommend it, but from what I Did read, it looked pretty good. http://www.circinfo.net/

Thank you for taking the time to find this site for me. I appreciate it and will be looking through it. :)

Vitamin K, what clots the blood and the baby's testosterone levels are the highest they'll be in his first 8 days... so when the circumcision is done, there is more of a 'rush to repair' by the body when done on the day commanded in Scripture. A general anesthetic and/or a drop of wine are provided when the procedure is done quickly and efficiently, taking less than 5 minutes.

Thank you so much for your thorough answer. I appreciate all the information you provided. I do have one question though - in the U.S. "general anesthesia" is not provided for infants because it is unsafe. According to the medical literature I have read, only a topical cream is applied. Is the general anesthesia that you are referring to only in Germany or is it used in some hospitals in the U.S. still? :scratch: Also, aren't the Vitamin K levels in infants only higher because of the injection they receive, or is it naturally produced (thus making the injections unneeded, I suppose)?

Good luck with your doctor's appointment. I hope it goes well for you :)
 
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Redguard

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My DH begs to differ.

:)

And the funny thing is... no matter how many websites I come across that have the "Circumcision Debate" going, it's never really the men who are up in arms about it.
 
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Leanna

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:)

And the funny thing is... no matter how many websites I come across that have the "Circumcision Debate" going, it's never really the men who are up in arms about it.

and how would you feel if you knew your mom had pride over your parts (either way) in her signature on a forum when you were little

^_^
 
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Redguard

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and how would you feel if you knew your mom had pride over your parts (either way) in her signature on a forum when you were little

^_^
This would be me:

1. Wow... mom... you know how to use a computer?
2. Wow... mom... you know how to get onto the internet?

And then lastly, I'd kindly ask her to stop discussing my boybits with other people on the internet. LOL
 
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jgonz

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Also, aren't the Vitamin K levels in infants only higher because of the injection they receive, or is it naturally produced (thus making the injections unneeded, I suppose)?
Vit.K is Naturally present in a newborn's body when born. The highest level of Vit.K in a newborn's body occurs on day 8 after birth (which is when G-d commanded the circ to be done on newborns).

There is also Vit.K present in breastmilk, so it all works together for the baby's body to heal very quickly (which has been my experience with all 5 boys so far).

Hope that answers your question... :)
 
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