Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Tishri1 said:That is an excellent point! So how do we combine that fact with the fact other's have brought up about not being able to partake of the Passover Seder unless one is circumcised?
see I agree with this but would love to see the Scripture that settles it....once and for allEspada said:I would suggest that this is much the same as the Lord's supper in its observance rules - in fact one is a foreshadow of the other (note I am not suggesting that one wipes out the other, that would be contrary to what I believe but the Lord's supper makes the seder complete). Nobody who is not a believer is to take part in the Lord's supper. Circumcision in Exodus would have played a similar role to modern day baptism as an outward sign of a person's devotion to God. If a foreigner wanted to come and celebrate a feast of G-d, they should first accept him and demonstrate a commitment to his ways.
In terms of Messianic celebrations, I would suggest that it would be circumcission of the heart which would be important here.
Exodus 12:48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it. 49 The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you."
Wags said:[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
I don't know how much clearer the instructions could be. It doesn't mention age - but it does say ALL his males. And torah observance is the appropriate conduct of a person who has been redeemed.
Of course at present we cannot truely keep Pesach or any of the other appointed times completely, since there is not a temple for conducting the sacrifices in. That is the only "out" I can see for someone not being cicumcised - well that and someone who repents and doesn't have the time/opportunity for circ or baptism before their death.
What I don't understand is the reluctance to follow the commands of G-d when it comes to circ. Yes I'm sure its painful (but it can't be as bad as giving birth!) but if you aren't willing to undergo a little pain to follow this command, then what would happen if your beliefs were outlawed? Would you cave in or would you stand firm?
[/FONT]
Wags what do you think about Paul's words on Circumcision?Wags said:[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
I don't know how much clearer the instructions could be. It doesn't mention age - but it does say ALL his males. And torah observance is the appropriate conduct of a person who has been redeemed.
Of course at present we cannot truely keep Pesach or any of the other appointed times completely, since there is not a temple for conducting the sacrifices in. That is the only "out" I can see for someone not being cicumcised - well that and someone who repents and doesn't have the time/opportunity for circ or baptism before their death.
What I don't understand is the reluctance to follow the commands of G-d when it comes to circ. Yes I'm sure its painful (but it can't be as bad as giving birth!) but if you aren't willing to undergo a little pain to follow this command, then what would happen if your beliefs were outlawed? Would you cave in or would you stand firm?
[/FONT]
Wags said:Unless there is a specific command by Yeshua that nulifies a portion of Torah (which there isn't - if He had taught against Torah then he would not be the messiah) then the commands in Torah are STILL applicable today to ALL beleivers regardless of their ethnicity.
I've said it once and I'll say it again - either you are a child (adopted or natural) of Abraham or you aren't. If you are, then all the rights and responsibilities that go along with belonging to the family are part of the deal. You don't get to pick and choose what parts of the family rules you want to keep.
It would seem to me that if one sits under the teaching of Moshe each Shabbat, eventually he would want to follow Torah with his whole heart and he would be willing to be circ'd.Act 15:19-21 "Therefore my judgment is that we don't trouble those from among the Gentiles who turn to God, but that we write to them that they abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood. For Moshe from generations of old has in every city those who preach him, being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."
Yovel, do you think Paul wanted them to get circ* later then?Yovel said:It would seem to me that if one sits under the teaching of Moshe each Shabbat, eventually he would want to follow Torah with his whole heart and he would be willing to be circ'd.
James didn't want to overwhelm new believers so he just gave the instruction to "abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood," as being the first steps of following Torah.
I can see how a person just coming into Messinanic Judaism would be overwhelmed if everything had to be done at once. We as parents don't expect our children to do math and English as soon as they are born. I think the Talmidim were using great wisdom.
So, as children brought up in the faith are not required to know all there is right away, the same applies to those who are called out of the church and want to be a part of the Messianic movement.
Yovel said:It would seem to me that if one sits under the teaching of Moshe each Shabbat, eventually he would want to follow Torah with his whole heart and he would be willing to be circ'd.
James didn't want to overwhelm new believers so he just gave the instruction to "abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood," as being the first steps of following Torah.
I can see how a person just coming into Messinanic Judaism would be overwhelmed if everything had to be done at once. We as parents don't expect our children to do math and English as soon as they are born. I think the Talmidim were using great wisdom.
So, as children brought up in the faith are not required to know all there is right away, the same applies to those who are called out of the church and want to be a part of the Messianic movement.
Espada said:Would that include all the laws regarding stoning?
Wags said:Ah yes, the old stoning argument -
We do not live in a theocratic society in Israel so we can not carry out those laws, just like we can not at this time, carry out the laws regarding sacrifice. However, scripture tells us that in the New Jerusalem we will be bringing sacrifice and keeping Shabbat etc...
Just becuase we cannot fulfill those instructions at present does not mean that they are null and void.
Paul was talking about believers doing Pesach (Passover), not the L-rd's supper. The L-rd's supper is from the church fathers' doing away with all the festivals of the L-rd and taking the Jewishness and significance of the festivals out of the early church.Espada said:First the Lord's Supper is part of Passover - the easy one Matt 26:17-30
Believers are called to keep it 1Cor 11:23-26
We know from my earlier postings that Jews are still required to be circumcised and gentiles aren't.
Anyone who takes the Lord's supper is called to examine themselves rather than take it in an unworthy manner 1 Cor 11:27:29
It is not possible for a non believer to examine themselves which is why they should not take part in the Lord's supper.
Notice that despite Corinth being mixed Jew and Gentile, he does not mention that only the circumcised should take the supper.
All believers are called to celebrate the Lord's supper, yet only the Jews are called be be circumcised of the flesh.
Yovel said:Paul was talking about believers doing Pesach (Passover), not the L-rd's supper. The L-rd's supper is from the church fathers' doing away with all the festivals of the L-rd and taking the Jewishness and significance of the festival out of the early church.
Yovel said:Paul was talking about believers doing Pesach (Passover), not the L-rd's supper. The L-rd's supper is from the church fathers' doing away with all the festivals of the L-rd and taking the Jewishness and significance of the festival out of the early church.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?