Church words - are they legit or is there problems?

[2PhiloVoid]

I do not think you understand what I am trying to get at.

I am not talking about verses. but words. Such as the word Grace.

What does the word grace mean?

What are the many different interpretations of this word.
Why does some interpretations appear to miss the actual definition of the term.

While the different interpretations of the word "grace" may help to lead into different interpretations of Eph 2, I am looking at the word itself. not the passage

Unfortunately for us living in the English nations of the 21st century, we have to realize that words in the bible aren't presented in a lexigraphic way.

If we want that, then we'll need to consult a lexicon and dictionary of Koine Greek in order to glean, however imperfectly, the way in which "grace" was used by 1st century Jewish writers like St. Paul, right?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Grace is not about our works- we all deserve death because we all have sinned and broke God's law. Grace is a gift of God that He gives outside of our work. Grace comes after Judgement, that is the part many underestimates its where justice and mercy will come together, we all have to stand before God for His Judgement based on our deeds. 2 Cor 5:10 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 14:7 Rev 22:14-15 Heb 5:9

Our works shows what is in our inside- our heart and demonstrates if we have been changed by Jesus, but we are only saved by His grace, because we deserve death and the penalty Christ took for us because of His great love for humanity. Many misinterpret this free gift meaning when we come to Christ and He accepts us, but then they reject His sanctification His desire not just to save us from the penalty of sin, but save us from the bondage of sin. Mat 1:21 John 14:15-18 Gal 5:19-26 James 2:10-12

but again, the fact that any of us stand here alive, able to do good or bad. does this not occur based on the grace of God.

What you are talking about is the gift of life. which is based on Grace, but is not grace itself is it?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Unfortunately for us living in the English nations of the 21st century, we have to realize that words in the bible aren't presented in a lexigraphic way.

If we want that, then we'll need to consult a lexicon and dictionary of Koine Greek in order to glean, however imperfectly, the way in which "grace" was used by 1st century Jewish writers like St. Paul, right?

true, But can we not look and see a particular defenition is false. not even close to what paul or anyone else would have used?

There will always be questions I believe, in which we must turn to context.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

but again, the fact that any of us stand here alive, able to do good or bad. does this not occur based on the grace of God.

What you are talking about is the gift of life. which is based on Grace, but is not grace itself is it?

Yes, we are living in grace, but we will all have decisions to make - we can choose to submit to God's will and cling to Christ or choose our own. The decisions we make today, will lead us to the path we are on


Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


Because when Christ comes all decisions will be final

Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him [a]be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

 

[2PhiloVoid]

true, But can we not look and see a particular defenition is false. not even close to what paul or anyone else would have used?

There will always be questions I believe, in which we must turn to context.

Sure. But looking for signs of incoherent definitions among competing definitions won't be enough tell us what the actual definition is since not everything in the Bible is open to pure deduction. In fact, I can't think of much of anything in the Bible that is determined by sheer deduction.

We just have to work with the fact that Hermeneutics, Philology and Linguistics, along with the attempt to find the actual meaning of biblical terms, don't work that way.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, we are living in grace, but we will all have decisions to make - we can choose to submit to God's will and cling to Christ or choose our own. The decisions we make today, will lead us to the path we are on

100% agree. but this is going further than what I wanted. I just wanted to talk about the word grace.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


Because when Christ comes all decisions will be final

Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him [a]be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Again I agree.

But it is by Gods grace we are able to say yes or now is it not?

so how should we then use this to interpret the word when we see it?

 

[d taylor]

What does the word mean to the general public though? What does it mean in the hebrew, in the greek?

does it not mean rescued?

what are we rescued from (the context)

I see many claim we are saved. but when you listen. they do not actually believe we are saved (using the defenition of the word)

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The general English definition can be seen from a dictionary. But take Romans 10:9 the saved in this verse does not mean eternal life salvation, but actually the physical saving of a believer. That can be seen if a person keeps reading chapter 10

That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

belief equals eternal life salvation and mouth confession equals a physical salvation as verse 14 goes on to say.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

To call on Jesus (to confess Him) as Romans verse 14 states a person must have first believed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sure. But looking for signs of incoherent definitions among competing definitions won't be enough tell us what the actual definition is since not everything in the Bible is open to pure deduction. In fact, I can't think of much of anything in the Bible that is determined by sheer deduction.

We just have to work with the fact that Hermeneutics, Philology and Linguistics, along with the attempt to find the actual meaning of biblical terms, don't work that way.

Can I take a word like Grace.

and make it mean something that it does nto mean?

Again, I have been told that grace is given to Gods children through channels. these channels are our works (Ie baptism, The Eucharist, Acts of penance etc etc)

is this even slightly possible by any definition of the word Grace? (grace is just one example I am using)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

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​

The general English definition can be seen from a dictionary. But take Romans 10:9 the saved in this verse does not mean eternal life salvation, but actually the physical saving of a believer. That can be seen if a person keeps reading chapter 10

This makes no sense.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

1. The word is Sozo - it literally means to be rescued.
2. If it was physical salvation, it would not be written in future form
3. I am already physically alive. so how could this keep me alive physically?

That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

belief equals eternal life salvation and mouth confession equals a physical salvation as verse 14 goes on to say.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

To call on Jesus (to confess Him) as Romans verse 14 states a person must have first believed.

I think it is both. I do not think physical salvation has any part of this'

I agree, Faith in God brings eternal life. But do we not also call what good is it if I have faith. yet do not ask God for his salvation? or to apply his payment for sin on my behalf?

 

[Clare73]

interestingly though when you look up the greek defenition of the word. "Unmerited" is not found.

When we look up all the greek resources we see the word Charis as follows

To show kindness To manifest graciousness toward, Kindness (louw Nida)
Favor, loving kindness (intermediate Greek lexicon)
Kindness, Favor, thanks (
Grace, beauty Charm, Favor, Goodwill, Free benevolance (the closest I see to unmerited) Gift, benefit (vines)

this is just a few of the resources I have. Now we can take it in context.

so is any person at any time living or walking the earth not under grace? (We all deserve hell. so as a pastor of mine says, any day I wake up and I am not in hell is a good day)

does not the fact I can chose to serve and love someone, or I can not serve or love someone all come under grace?

Does that fact I am allowed to live, even if I am evil (say like Hitler who killed millions) under the preview of grace by definition.

Hence the part I said will most likely cause debate. the thought Hitler was under grace? Please remember in context. I did not say he was saved.. I am saying the fact he was allowed By God to do what he willed to do. is that not by grace?

Grace can be thought of as common and as special.

Common grace applies to all men, special grace to the redeemed.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Can I take a word like Grace.

and make it mean something that it does nto mean?

Again, I have been told that grace is given to Gods children through channels. these channels are our works (Ie baptism, The Eucharist, Acts of penance etc etc)

is this even slightly possible by any definition of the word Grace? (grace is just one example I am using)

For us to make a word mean something it cannot mean, we'd first have to know how and why a word like ~grace~ would have been used within the confines and breadth of the ancient Greek (Koine Greek, really) vocabulary.

And since the Bible itself is NOT a self-contained, comprehensive lexicon for concepts and rules regarding language, it's not simply a matter of 'reading the Bible' to understand what 'grace' should mean.

Now, obviously, with that said, and IF we assume the translators haven't muddled the translations and semantics in bringing the bible into English, then we could all approximate what grace means in the literary contexts and historical contexts in which we find the term.

 

[Clare73]

interestingly though when you look up the greek defenition of the word. "Unmerited" is not found.

True. . .but when you look up its use in the NT regarding salvation of the redeemed, the meaning is "unmerited."

Many words in the NT have more than a secular meaning. . .(saving) faith, eternal (God's) life, hope (for what is guaranteed), etc.

When we look up all the greek resources we see the word Charis as follows

To show kindness To manifest graciousness toward, Kindness (louw Nida)
Favor, loving kindness (intermediate Greek lexicon)
Kindness, Favor, thanks (
Grace, beauty Charm, Favor, Goodwill, Free benevolance (the closest I see to unmerited) Gift, benefit (vines)

this is just a few of the resources I have. Now we can take it in context.

so is any person at any time living or walking the earth not under grace? (We all deserve hell. so as a pastor of mine says, any day I wake up and I am not in hell is a good day)

does not the fact I can chose to serve and love someone, or I can not serve or love someone all come under grace?

Does that fact I am allowed to live, even if I am evil (say like Hitler who killed millions) under the preview of grace by definition.

Hence the part I said will most likely cause debate. the thought Hitler was under grace? Please remember in context. I did not say he was saved.. I am saying the fact he was allowed By God to do what he willed to do. is that not by grace?

 

[Clare73]

Can I take a word like Grace.

and make it mean something that it does nto mean?

Again, I have been told that grace is given to Gods children through channels. these channels are our works (Ie baptism, The Eucharist, Acts of penance etc etc)

is this even slightly possible by any definition of the word Grace? (grace is just one example I am using)

Grace is (unmerited) favor.
In this instance, grace is being used as sanctification, which occurs through obedience in the power of the Holy Spirit.
It seems that grace is being used of enablement (due to favor?).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Grace can be thought of as common and as special.

Common grace applies to all men, special grace to the redeemed.

I can see it this way. But I still think grace is grace.

now common reward is given to all men (the ability to do whatever they want, knowing there will be consequences and the reward may not be what you want) and a special reward given to those born of God.

 

[Clare73]

I can see it this way. But I still think grace is grace.

now common reward is given to all men (the ability to do whatever they want, knowing there will be consequences and the reward may not be what you want) and a special reward given to those born of God.

Yes, grace is favor.

And there are degrees of favor, from your laborers to your sons.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For us to make a word mean something it cannot mean, we'd first have to know how and why a word like ~grace~ would have been used within the confines and breadth of the ancient Greek (Koine Greek, really) vocabulary.

And since the Bible itself is NOT a self-contained, comprehensive lexicon for concepts and rules regarding language, it's not simply a matter of 'reading the Bible' to understand what 'grace' should mean.

Now, obviously, with that said, and IF we assume the translators haven't muddled the translations and semantics in bringing the bible into English, then we could all approximate what grace means in the literary contexts and historical contexts in which we find the term.

I disagree for the most part.

eternal means forever
Life means living


by definition, to say one has eternal life means they will essentially live forever.

yet many churches say this is not true. that eternal life is a religious term (or like this thread says, I call it a church word)

this is what I am trying to get us to think about.

Why would I look at Jesus words where he says you WILL never perish but have eternal life (literally life eternally)

and interpret it not to mean what it says.. that a person who is given it. can still die (perish) and may not live forever.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Grace is (unmerited) favor.
In this instance, grace is being used as sanctification, which occurs through obedience in the power of the Holy Spirit.
It seems that grace is being used of enablement (due to favor?).

But would this not be grace? Would this not be merited favor. that the favor is given through meritorious works?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, grace is favor.

And there are degrees of favor, from your laborers to your sons.

agree,

but again, is grace merited in any way shape or form?

Did I earn the right to be evil. or do good. to be whoever I want to be?

 

[Clare73]

I disagree for the most part.

eternal means forever
Life means living


by definition, to say one has eternal life means they will essentially live forever.

yet many churches say this is not true. that eternal life is a religious term (or like this thread says, I call it a church word)

this is what I am trying to get us to think about.

Why would I look at Jesus words where he says you WILL never perish but have eternal life (literally life eternally)

and interpret it not to mean what it says.. that a person who is given it. can still die (perish) and may not live forever.

Eternal is also about quality as well as duration.

Eternal life is God's life within the human spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

True. . .but when you look up its use in the NT regarding salvation of the redeemed, the meaning is "unmerited."

Many words in the NT have more than a secular meaning. . .(saving) faith, eternal (God's) life, hope (for what is guaranteed), etc.

I believe all grace is unmerited. that there is no such things as merited grace.

I believe Paul shows us this in his epistle.