Church of the Nativity

[Dave Ulchers]

A stun grenade thrown into the compound by Israeli troops set fire to part of the church on the site where Jesus was born. An Israeli sniper shot and killed a 23 year old Palestian police officer who tried to extinguish the blaze.

 

[coastie]

This stun grenade was not thrown to burn the church or the clergy, it was thrown because there are terrorists in the church that are barcading themselves.

More Media Propaganda! Consider the source

God Bless

 

[Dave Ulchers]

Um, msnbc?

The people inside that church are guests of the Catholic Church. Do you have any evidence that they are "terrorists"? Or are you the one spouting propaganda?

 

[coastie]

Sir, I did not intend my response to give the impression that you were "spouting propaganda". However, for the past couple of days numerous news sources have been reporting that terrorists were baracading themselves inside of the church.

Aside from what I am hearing on the news and seeing in the papers, it doesn't make any sense that a Judeo-Christian Nation would order it's troops to hurt clergy.

Always analyze what you are hearing and do not take it for face value. Our reporting sources are getting there info from severely biased sources located in the afflicted nations.

I advise you to cross reference everything that you hear on one channel with many others. Your personal opinions may hender your ability to really analyze the reports. If you look at this from a non-partisan point of view you would see that these claims make no sense.

God Bless and happy hunting

It's good to see more people becoming involved in these events

Zach

 

[Kiwi]

Zach, Israel is not a Judo-Christian nation. It is one of the most secular nations in the world. I know this because I have a few Israeli christian friends and that is what they told me. No christian missionaries are allowed to work in Israel and christians are treated poorly. There are more christians in Palestine than in Israel, a fact often overlooked. According to Open Doors Ministries for Persecuted Christians, Palestinian christians are the most overlooked persecuted christian group in the world because of western christians bias towards Israel. While Israel may have a special place in Gods heart it does not excuse the fact that they are acting in a very unchristlike manner towards the Palestinians.

 

[coastie]

I don't know your Israeli Christian friends, nor do I know there background. What I do know is that Israel has many ethnic and religious Jews as well as a Christian populace. While violence is not a Christian practice, you cannot discount what I am saying by telling me that Palestine has more Christians than Palestine.

Surely there are persecuted Christians in Palestine, as there are in every other country throughout the world. Christians are not who the Israelies are fighting against. They are fighting against Palestinian Terrorists. Supporting them is just as bad as these reports of Israelies carelessly shooting the poor innocent Palestinian police officers.

Please do not mistake my support for the reconstruction of Israel or peace in the middle east as support for violence. A counter-offensive must have a trigger for it to be effective. Senseless killing of innocent people is the goal of Palistinian terrorists. This must be stopped.

 

[Kiwi]

What about the senseless killing of innocent people in Palastine? Should the Israelis also be stopped?

 

[Kiwi]

I am not insulting you, don't be so sensitive. Off to bed now, goodnight

 

[VOW]

Originally posted by coastie
What I do know is that Israel has many ethnic and religious Jews as well as a Christian populace. While violence is not a Christian practice, you cannot discount what I am saying by telling me that Palestine has more Christians than Palestine.

Senseless killing of innocent people is the goal of Palistinian terrorists. This must be stopped.

The Orthodox Jews have been at odds with the "Zionists" who control the Israeli government since the establishment of the state of Israel after the end of WWII. The political and military rulers are more of a secular Jew than a religious one.

While it is true that Palestinian terrorists will target anyone, the Israeli military does not do a thorough job of verifying a Palestinian's religion or political status before attacking.

The attack on ANY religious structure, but especially one revered by Christians as being located in the birthplace of our Savior, is abhorrent, no matter WHO or WHAT is assumed to be inside.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[ZiSunka]

Okay. Instead of throwing verbal stones at each other, why don't we get back on track about the Church of the Nativity.

Question:
Does a church's status as a sanctuary extend to giving physical refuge to people, or should a church be used only as a place of spiritual refuge, to worship and pray in?

How do you feel when you see people holed up in a church for safey-sake during a battle like this?

Do you worry more about damage to the structure, or injury to the people?

 

[VOW]

To Lambslove:

Oh, I agree, it's dirty pool for any fighting forces to use a house of worship as a structure of war. However, you cannot discount that non-combatants could also be inside as well.

My personal feeling would be to just wait. Provide food, water, medicine, and just wait. The sanctity of the structure should be observed, and BOTH sides should refrain from blowing it up or shooting it to pieces. If someone is so callous as to use the Church as a hiding place and tries to engage in sniper fire from the structure, then just wait. The bullets won't last forever.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[RKF]

They were shooting at people while inside the church, that is not seeking refuge. Until the peace maker comes on the scene these two brothers will fight to the end- they hate each other!!!!

 

[ZiSunka]

I'm just wondering how you all feel about people using a church as a refuge.

Don't you think that it should be a safe haven for those in danger?

 

[VOW]

A church is the House of God. Period. The doors are to remain open at all times (although these days, they often have to be locked to prevent looting and vandalism), and the prinicple of sanctuary has a long, long history.

There are no metal detectors or sentries at the church doors, so a combatant is free to enter. Should the combatant then use the church as a vantage point for sniper fire or to lob grenades, or WHATEVER, it is my personal opinion that the opposing forces have no business whatsoever to return fire. There is no guarantee that the church cannot also contain civilian non-combatants, worshippers, and members of the ministry.

All the opposition has to do is WAIT. The bullets will eventually run out.

Two wrongs don't make a right, the end does NOT justify the means. It is reprehensible that a combatant would bring a house of worship into the battle arena, but it is equally reprehensible for the opposing side to also consider it to be just another target.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Dave Ulchers]

Originally posted by RKF
They were shooting at people while inside the church, that is not seeking refuge.

No one has been shooting from within the church. Where do you get this information?

 

[davo]

Cutting to the chase folks, this is where it's at:

It is reprehensible that anybody can justify any of this murderous violence -zionistic Christians mishandling the Scriptures to turn a nave blind eye, and Islamic supremacists using the Koran to rubber stamp terrorism.

This idea that God somehow sanctions Israels actions is disgusting and no different from the evil the Nazi's perpetrated against countless Jews and others saying: "they (the Jews) killed Christ" -using/misusung the Scriptures to justify their own evil actions.

God has no SPECIAL ethnic people today apart from the people that make up the "nation" of the Body of Christ i.e., the Church -made up of believers from every nation under heaven.

The promises of "everlasting Land" under the Old Covenant were ALL COMLPETELY fulfilled (read the Bible without blinkers and it is very clear). Under the Old Covenant "everlasting" meant 'as long as God was dealing with His people in a specific way' eg; circumcision was an "everlasting" covenant sign -it is so NO LONGER etc etc.

If people trully believe that somehow ethnic Israel is today "God's special people" why not join them? let their actions show this -will they as many Jews, forsake Christ and embrace Judaism. (get real!)

Israelis has a right to peace AS DO the Palestinians. Since 1967 Israel has been forcfully occupying Palestinain land -they need to get out -PERIOD! These tit-for-tat killings are not justifiable and not the answer.

davo

 

[RKF]

The jews are and always will be God's chosen people!
no, he hasn't divorce them!
Don't bring that preterest junk here.

Your body is the church not some building made with hands. No ye not that you are the temple of the Holy Ghost.

 

[davo]

Originally posted by RKF
The jews are and always will be God's chosen people!
no, he hasn't divorce them!
Don't bring that preterest junk here.

Ron, don't run and hide and arrogantly dismiss as you do, without providing Biblical proof. Many many "futurists" heartily agree with what I've written -this is not as you judgingly bit "preterest junk". -put up or...!

davo

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by RKF
The jews are and always will be God's chosen people!

RKF, Please explain to all the Christians here how anyone who absolutely, flatly and totally rejects Christ as Lord and Savior can be Gods Chosen People.


This ought to be good.

 

[allieisme]

Do you have any evidence that they are "terrorists"? Or are you the one spouting propaganda? [/B][/QUOTE]

You dont need to be so harsh..I think thats not very nice, and not appropriate