Church Hierarchy

[christianforumsuser]

But if nobody is allowed to speak with authority and call themselves right and only keep trying to "humbly" imitate what is overall accepted by the world's society they'd be doing the opposite of the Bible even while holding it.
People should be ashamed of that but instead act proud in such large number. If anyone wanted to see what the Bible said they could I'd hope. Somehow they refuse to hear that they're wrong or did anything wrong, so there's nothing I can do for them. They think they're right. Or clearly not...but they contradict as hypocrites...just because they like sin
You can't disagree with God's Word. They have nothing to say except "hey don't be rude" because they prioritize their culture and carnal desires. But it's not rude, it would be rude to not tell them, but some people don't want helped.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

But if nobody is allowed to speak with authority and call themselves right and only keep trying to "humbly" imitate what is overall accepted by the world's society they'd be doing the opposite of the Bible even while holding it.
People should be ashamed of that but instead act proud in such large number. If anyone wanted to see what the Bible said they could I'd hope. Somehow they refuse to hear that they're wrong or did anything wrong, so there's nothing I can do for them. They think they're right. Or clearly not...but they contradict as hypocrites...just because they like sin

What do you do if you find out that history contradicts something you thought you understood correctly?

Forgive me...

 

[christianforumsuser]

Hopefully I wouldn't be some hypocrite so comfortable in flesh to refuse to hear the evidence and make a wise decision. Not that I've never lied or covered my ears on things. I think I've barely known anyone or anything. Some people are in mental states that make it difficult to hear things and they instinctively react. It's not wise, but people come up with all sorts of excuses and lies and pass blame.
And it would hurt their feelings to point that out and read the Bible when they're not ready. There's so much hurt in the world and conflict, people sheltered and think they're good nice people, there's health problems, cultures and social classes, but hopefully I'd also not be so carnally minded and really do God's will. If I took it personal they might wonder if I'm really reading the Bible or just using it as an excuse to argue with them for carnal things.
But all they know is that mind, so they see anything foreign as lowly and ugly maybe. It's all about money and family...status symbols and pleasure.
If I talked in the voice they're familiar with called "nice" they'd say "he's being nice" but knowing that I also compromised to do so. I can talk that way, but they actually need to let go of their thoughts else they think they're so right which beats the point. I'm talking nice, it's them who doesn't recognize that.

If I want worldly things over true understanding, I'd be where they are.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Its been my experience that reason and evidence don't change minds.

Its not about that anyway. Head knowledge is unimportant compared to how we physically take care of others.

Forgive me...

 

[Albion]

Actually, bishop and elder is one and the same and as I said there is no hierarchy as all ministries are servant ministries..

That's true, as concerns some Protestant churches, but only some. Anyway, deacon, presbyter, and bishop are definitely each referred to in the New Testament, and we also know how they functioned in early church history, so all of that shows us that the idea of teachers, prophets, etc. etc. being the "hierarchy" of church leadership instead of them is highly questionable.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

So... those different jobs in the OP all serve different functions within the liturgical life and administrative life of The Church.

In truth, they all answer to the laity. The body of the Church can remove them as well as elect them in the EOC.

Forgive me...

 

[christianforumsuser]

Once people keep trying to carnally manage things straying from Scripture they might end up in so much of a problem they'd regret not listening, as it seems more profitable to the carnal mind to be carnally minded as that's all it knows.

If you wanna know about what positions and words mean...see what Scripture says about it. I don't know about all the worldly things people say that stray from it.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

How about the position I just told you about?

An Ordained Reader. You won't find it in the New Testament, and it came later than the addition of Deacons.

Forgive me...

 

[christianforumsuser]

As I said I don't know about all the carnal ideas. Just some Scripture
If it's according to Scripture then fine
Language might change...the meaning can still be there
Water is water, spirit is spirit, flesh is flesh
But there's different pipes or spirits or fleshes. But Scripture tells us what we need to know. So I just hope people will repent if they need to, regardless of how long they've spent gaining status and other worldly things

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What would be an example of an error a patricular Hiarchy teaches that you feel strongly enough about to oppose?

Forgive me...

 

[Halbhh]

"28 And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts." 1 Cor. 12:28-31 (NASB)

Where is this hierarchy present in any church denomination today?

The word hierarchy (not in this quoted passage) often makes people think of levels of authority....

Christ did have something to say to us about that idea of some being above others among us --

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah.
11The greatest among you will be your servant.
12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.


Consider how He said for us to be in terms of position, hierarchy --

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them.
3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

 

[christianforumsuser]

No I really don't know much about all that. I'm unaware of much but I hope I at least wouldn't be someone who talks about it as if I do
Carnal people like their own thoughts and desires, if they're comfortable in wickedness calling it good they see no reason to be spiritual.
They hold tradition over Jesus's words


Lots of people call their dads "father" and tell you how perfect their "father is". They're not as lowly as that child Jesus spoke of are they
But do I sound arrogant saying this...quoting the Bible itself

But if I were a soothsayer I'd get shown respect and given money
Nobody even reads the Bible. Even those who do. Look what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I think St. Paul understood the difference. Christ was saying "dont be confused about God the Father. No eathly man is The Father.

Now St Paul was a student of Christ. And he told others that he was their spiritual father.

The context is different. One is man and God, the other is man to man.

Forgive me..

 

[JoeP222w]

"28 And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts." 1 Cor. 12:28-31 (NASB)

Where is this hierarchy present in any church denomination today?

I don't think this passage alone defines the absolute hierarchy for the Christian church for all times and all places. Paul was addressing the concerns of the Corinthian church. He was not defining a universal model of church hierarchy.

 

[Norbert L]

"28 And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts." 1 Cor. 12:28-31 (NASB)

Where is this hierarchy present in any church denomination today?

"Has appointed". I think of numerous examples where that has happened within the recorded message left for us. As time since then moves on, I observe that there are men appointed by other men Galatians 1:1 or self proclaim Acts 20:30 to be these types of officials within the churches of today.

From what I am able to see and conclude, the case being made for some kind of all encompassing successive hierarchy passed down through men cannot be established. What I do see as time progressed are successive generations of men who taught and read from the scriptures trying to maintain some coherence and structured order to keep preaching and teaching the gospel of Jesus found in the scriptures. John 17:20 John 20:29

 

[Episaw]

Eastern Orthodox still have all of these.

Forgive me...

And "these" being what?

 

[bling]

The highest position in the Chinese unregistered churches seems to be the unpaid small house church leader. They do have elders, but they have been winding up in prison. I asked about qualifications for elder and the main one was spending time in prison already for the cause and coming out stronger than you went in.

 

[disciple1]

"28 And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts." 1 Cor. 12:28-31 (NASB)

Where is this hierarchy present in any church denomination today?

I think today churches are trying to stay open, and it's about money.
I think people in church should take turns doing the sermons not just one person, and do away with the pastors pay check.
The bible has nothing good to say about pastors anyway.

 

[christianforumsuser]

Wage earners. More followers is likely more money and social standing

Nothing wrong with having money.
Someone's not right

 

[GingerBeer]

1 Cor. 12:28-31

Is that passage listing a hierarchy or is it listing gifts? The two things are not the same.

1 Corinthians 12:28-31 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? (30) Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? (31) But strive for the greater gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
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