Church discipline

[lambkisses]

Any one here have any experience with church discipline? And has any one ever heard of subjecting a wife to church discipline due to the actions of her husband?
My husband had pretty much severed ties with or church last December. We both grew up and were married in that church. Although my husband refuses to go and there is much bad blood between him and pretty much every one else there I have continued to attend with my family.
Recently my husband and I threw a medieval times themed birthday party for my nephew and we invited many of my nephew's friends from church plus their parents. The party was amazing, my husband recruited some of his subordinates from work and they decorated, made food and provided live entertainment which culminated in a drunken Kung fu battle (before anyone gets concerned it was a hung gar kung-fu demonstration between my husband abs his subordinates not a brawl between guests) . All the kids had a good time and I figured the parents would be grateful and see that despite any ill will between then and my husband we were all civil enough for the sake of the children. However, the party rekindled many ill feelings that my community of faith had towards my husband. They again were whispering about my husband's corrupt morals, rebellion, pridefulness, ect. The church elders resolved to subject him to church discipline, but the problem is he no longer goes to that (or any church) and thus church discipline means nothing. Seeing as how they are unable to affect him, they are applying the church discipline to me. Their argument is that since we were married in the church we are "one" as such I should be subject to anything my husband would be subject to. Is this fair? It was easy for him to turn his back on or church but it isn't for me. Church was my social circle and now I find myself being restricted from many of the activities of the congregation. I am no longer allowed at many of the social events and I am at a loss of what to do. I understand the purpose of discipline is restoration but what happens in this case where the person whom the discipline is intended does not desire restoration. Does it mean I am going to be denied restoration?

 

[Saint Beloved]

Any one here have any experience with church discipline? And has any one ever heard of subjecting a wife to church discipline due to the actions of her husband?
My husband had pretty much severed ties with or church last December. We both grew up and were married in that church. Although my husband refuses to go and there is much bad blood between him and pretty much every one else there I have continued to attend with my family.
Recently my husband and I threw a medieval times themed birthday party for my nephew and we invited many of my nephew's friends from church plus their parents. The party was amazing, my husband recruited some of his subordinates from work and they decorated, made food and provided live entertainment which culminated in a drunken Kung fu battle (before anyone gets concerned it was a hung gar kung-fu demonstration between my husband abs his subordinates not a brawl between guests) . All the kids had a good time and I figured the parents would be grateful and see that despite any ill will between then and my husband we were all civil enough for the sake of the children. However, the party rekindled many ill feelings that my community of faith had towards my husband. They again were whispering about my husband's corrupt morals, rebellion, pridefulness, ect. The church elders resolved to subject him to church discipline, but the problem is he no longer goes to that (or any church) and thus church discipline means nothing. Seeing as how they are unable to affect him, they are applying the church discipline to me. Their argument is that since we were married in the church we are "one" as such I should be subject to anything my husband would be subject to. Is this fair? It was easy for him to turn his back on or church but it isn't for me. Church was my social circle and now I find myself being restricted from many of the activities of the congregation. I am no longer allowed at many of the social events and I am at a loss of what to do. I understand the purpose of discipline is restoration but what happens in this case where the person whom the discipline is intended does not desire restoration. Does it mean I am going to be denied restoration?

I have no authority to advise you about church discipline but I had to post to say I'm sorry for the trauma you're suffering. Your husband is the families spiritual leader it makes little sense to me for them to punish you for his behaviour that to me is like punishing a child for their parents drunk driving offences. Yes you are one flesh in marriage but this... feels very unGod like practice to me as an outsider.

I hope God provides someone here to help guide you and bring you comfort in your affliction.

God bless you, please keep us posted.

 

[FenderTL5]

I know our church/Diocese has disciplinary hearings to resolve disputes/issues that meets on a regular basis.
This is to keep disputes out of the court system. It can be between any persons within the church, including domestic disputes.
I know one of the arbitrators, and I know he has to spend a weekend a month in hearings. I don't know much more.

Maybe check with whatever governing body your church/parish is accountable to and see if they have something similar.

 

[lambkisses]

Your husband is the families spiritual leader it makes little sense to me for them to punish you for his behaviour

This is actually the cornerstone of their argument as to why it is acceptable to subject me to the discipline meant for him. That not withstanding I feel that his behavior didn't warrant discipline to begin with. They are wanting to punish him for doing something extremely loving and generous for my nephew. And it is completely lost on many who pushed for this discipline that he invited them and their children to this celebration dispte the bad blood between him and the other parents for the sake of the children.

 

[lambkisses]

I know our church/Diocese has disciplinary hearings to resolve disputes/issues that meets on a regular basis.
This is to keep disputes out of the court system. It can be between any persons within the church, including domestic disputes.
I know one of the arbitrators, and I know he has to spend a weekend a month in hearings. I don't know much more.

Maybe check with whatever governing body your church/parish is accountable to and see if they have something similar.

We are not catholic so we do not have most of those safeguards in place.

 

[Halbhh]

I'm so sorry this has happened. I think you should go to the elders and tell them of your feelings, just as you have here, and they should reverse it for you and your family.

If they do not, please do find a church that obeys Christ, instead. And, even if they do, I recommend that you to begin reading the gospels, so that you know what Christ instructed, and will be able to see whether your church is following Him, because this action has me concerned that they may not.

Do not worry about whether you'd have to 'start over' on making relationships -- in a church that does follow Christ you will be welcomed and loved. In fact, it's the way to know quickly at the beginning whether they are following Him.

 

[Saint Beloved]

This is actually the cornerstone of their argument as to why it is acceptable to subject me to the discipline meant for him. That not withstanding I feel that his behavior didn't warrant discipline to begin with. They are wanting to punish him for doing something extremely loving and generous for my nephew. And it is completely lost on many who pushed for this discipline that he invited them and their children to this celebration dispte the bad blood between him and the other parents for the sake of the children.

Is this punishing the wife for the husband biblically presidented though?

Eve and Adam sinned by eating forbidden fruit but Adam as the head took the brunt of their punishment because he as the head of the family was responsible, same can be said for today. I'm reminded of the couple who sold property and promised the whole sum to the Holy Spirit but kept some back in front of Peter, in that case both shared the same punishment of death but the husband died first and that was because they lied to the Holy Spirit, not man.

Sounds like some questionable doctrines going around in your Baptist home. My advice go higher is there a higher authority than your local elders to go to with someone else, maybe a sympathetic elder?

 

[lambkisses]

This is the incident which led to the discipline..
what love really is
Is church discipline really even merited here. Seeing as this isn't even close to the some of the other things my husband had done which the church knows about.

 

[GandalfTheWise]

I feel for you. Getting caught between family members and church members is difficult. I've not been in that situation much, but I got caught in an aftermath of a church split and saw the uglier side of churches. I know what it's like to lose sleep and feel so sick to your stomach you cannot eat.

Based on what you've said in various spots here, my impression is that the party was probably a case of the straw that broke the camel's back. If there were no prior history between your husband and many of those people, at worst, it might have raised a few eyebrows and maybe led to some families having prior engagements the next time a party invitation was received and probably little more. Given that the party was originally slated to be at a different location with different entertainment (and would I guess correctly that the original plan was no alcohol being served?), I could see some people being uncomfortable with it and being unhappy that they found themselves in the middle of something they might have said no to otherwise. Had this been an isolated occasion, I'd guess nothing would have (or should have) come of it.

After what you've written, I wonder if the church discipline on this one thing might just be a symptom of something deeper. Is this God's way of getting your attention? Sometimes things like this are indeed battles to be fought and worked through. However, sometimes they are God's way of pointing out something needs to change.

Sometimes God has a big and new and exciting direction He wants our lives to take, but it may require some transitions on our part. This whole church discipline thing might just be His way of getting your attention that He wants to do something really cool that you had never even dreamed or thought much about before. In what you've written, there might be some hints of things of things that God might be trying to address before big moves forward are possible.
1. How is your husband's spiritual walk? What does he need in order to have a closer walk with God? Would going to a different church help? Does he have any close friends that are solid good influences? How has your husband's spiritual walk changed over the years? What are his goals in life? What are the really cool things God could do in his life? Is he in the right line of work?
2. You and your family need to be connected to a healthy group of Christians that is (mostly) free from drama. (No such thing as a perfect church, but some are much healthier than others). How much are you spiritually growing in your current church? Are there different ministries or churches you should join where you could grow more? (Speaking from experience, I love my comfortable rut and sometimes God has put a big rock into it that forced me to transition to the next rut.)
3. Based on some statements, I have the impression there is some amount of tension between you and other family members. Is there some reconciliation needed that would make family events a joy to be part of?
4. I'm going to jump out and test the ice with both feet on this one. It's too serious not to consider. I'm rarely this blunt, and I am writing this as a series of questions and not accusations. Is your husband a good boss and are his subordinates well-treated? Perhaps more importantly, do they think he is a good boss and that they are well-treated? And will they tell the truth about it? (I worked as an analyst for awhile and ran the company surveys. Most employees will NOT tell management the truth for fear of ramifications.) All the love and favors in the world shown to friends and family does not make up for poor treatment of people outside the chosen few. And does that make you "the boss's wife" that people tiptoe carefully around for fear of saying something that will get back to him? Is anyone scared of offending you for fear of ramifications from your husband? (Note that I didn't ask "have you actually bad-mouthed someone to your husband?" but rather "is anyone worried that you might?") How might this be affecting your relationships in the community and at church? Is it possible some people might have fear that a misstep around you might get someone fired? As someone who has spent time analyzing employee satisfaction and good employment practices, some of the things you wrote were giant red flags to me.

Praying that God grants you wisdom and guidance to see where His hand is leading in all of this. My gut feeling is that this might be His lead up to a time of exciting new things that He'd like to do in your lives.

 

[lambkisses]

If there were no prior history between your husband and many of those people, at worst, it might have raised a few eyebrows and maybe led to some families having prior engagements the next time a party invitation was received and probably little more. Given that the party was originally slated to be at a different location with different entertainment (and would I guess correctly that the original plan was no alcohol being served?), I could see some people being uncomfortable

Hmmmm I never thought that the alcohol was the issue because originally the party was to be held at the home of my father so it would have been served there and everyone knew that (my own father is a church elder, he abstained from the discipline vote ). I'm suppose the fact that my husband got intoxicated to exhibit his Hung gar zaio kun (Chinese drunken boxing) was probably a cause for concern. Mind you it is not drunken brawling like in a bar fight it is actually very entertaining to watch. The major complaint, at least the openly stated one was that my husband is "corrupt", "prideful", and "ostentatious". The corruption charge stems from the open secret that at his job he has a core group of subordinates whom he calls "The Companions". These guys and gals are pretty much his cronies and they do what ever he says. They almost worship him (I have been filling in for the receptionist so I see the interaction) . They have gone as far as letting him rename all of them. I suppose that it isn't fair to call that a "secret " anymore because at the party he delivered a monolog about the benefits of being a "Companion" before he pitted them against each other in mock battles with training weapons. Basically entertainment for the party was 6 of his subordinates dueling to see who gets to be or remain a companion (to my husband's credit he declared all those involved in hosting the party companions all so it is quite possible that all the dual were just fun). Also, after my husband got intoxicated he passed out metal weapons to all his sunnordinates and challenged them to take him on all at once while he himself was armed with a broom handle. He told them all if anyone of them can draw his blood he will immediately declare that person engineering manager and my husband will then work for him or her. The reason he gets away with this type of thing at his job is because his best friend's dad owns majority stake in the company and my husband has 15% held in trust. Right now due to the oil down turn my husband's engineering department is the only part of that company which is making money. For this reason many of our former church friends think he is very corrupt.
The charge of pridefulness stems also from his interaction with his"companions". My husband's first name is Alexander so do you see where this is going? When he renamed his "companions" he renamed them after Alexander the Great's generals(for the girls he just names then after women who were affiliated with Alexander the great). He calls those guys his Companions as in Companion Cavalry. I always thought this was harmless and that it made them all happy so is fine but apparently our church never liked this.

1. How is your husband's spiritual walk? What does he need in order to have a closer walk with God? Would going to a different church help? Does he have any close friends that are solid good influences? How has your husband's spiritual walk changed over the years? What are his goals in life? What are the really cool things God could do in his life? Is he in the right line of work?

I would say not great. But we all fall short of grace. He does things that show he has a truly good heart but he also does some really idiotic questionable things.

3. Based on some statements, I have the impression there is some amount of tension between you and other family members. Is there some reconciliation needed that would make family events a joy to be part of?

There is a lot. My husband has caused members of my family to "take sides". Both my sister in laws hate him. My eldest brother and his step kids idolize him while my second brother is very leery of him.

Is your husband a good boss and are his subordinates well-treated?

Depends on who you ask. His Companions love him and will practicallydo anything for him. Other people in the office clearly begrudge the favoritism he shows his friends but all acknowledge that he isn't "mean"and that he is the only reason there haven't been any more layoffs since October. My husband doesn't as much treat those outside is core group poorly as much as he shows extreme favoritism to his friends. My husband is 26 years old, so basically those who are older think he is an annoying brat and those who are his age and younger think he is god.

How might this be affecting your relationships in the community and at church? I

This one is a sticky wicket. No one from his job is affiliated with the church at all. However there have been people from church whom have asked my husband for jobs and employment leads. My husband always refuses these because in all honesty he dislikes most of the people at our church. One family in particular he had an extreme enmity to. All stemming from a grudge he had held since he was a boy (this family's house burned down when he was in fourth or fifth grade, his mom gave his Tonka truck to the little boy in this family and my husband had hated that boy since ). Flash forward 15 odd years later, this boy also has an engineering degree but no job. Also this other family is ethnically Chinese as well so apparently that matters. They have been practically begging my husband's family to pressure my husband into helping him find work or give him a position at his work. My husband refuses to even look at the resume. However at the party ( that young man has a son who is friends with my nephew), after he defeated his six subordinates he challenged that young man to fight and told him if he won he could knock the drink out of my husband's hand, my husband would not only give him a job but he would be the manager and my husband would be the junior. Of course everyone knew better than to let this occur so my husband's companions pretty much dog piled him and hustled him inside.
I personally think that the church discipline is meant to settle a score with my husband. I don't want to judge others but we have a few members who have DUI'S and other legal issues and church discipline was never applied to them.

 

[Poppyseed78]

I would leave that church without a second thought.

 

[lambkisses]

I would leave that church without a second thought.

that sounds very simple but this is where I grew up. And despite the imperfections (no church is perfect) this is my church home, and I just cannot bring myself to sever all my relationships there. To be honest, if I didn't have feelings and attachments to this church I wouldn't care a lick that I am subject to church discipline. (I would be like my husband)
I would like to add that I haven't brought this up to my husband yet. It's because things have been going so well between us lately. He hasn't been getting in trouble and he has been so supportive lately.

 

[Saint Beloved]

that sounds very simple but this is where I grew up. And despite the imperfections (no church is perfect) this is my church home, and I just cannot bring myself to sever all my relationships there. To be honest, if I didn't have feelings and attachments to this church I wouldn't care a lick that I am subject to church discipline. (I would be like my husband)

Nooooooooooo leaving a local community is the last resort! PLEASE ANYONE THINKING ABOUT IT stay as long as you can nothing good can surely come from cafeteria christianity.

 

[Poppyseed78]

nevermind

 

[lambkisses]

Nooooooooooo leaving a local community is the last resort! PLEASE ANYONE THINKING ABOUT IT stay as long as you can nothing good can surely come from cafeteria christianity.

I don't want to leave. I want reconciliation. I honestly thought things were getting better. My husband was refusing to go to church (that church in particular) but he was completely supportive that i still went. He was even big enough host and be friendly to everyone one dispite his resentment fit the sake of giving my nephew that party.it is almost like the church was more eager to sanction him when he was being cordial than when he was being hostile (there was NEVER threats of discipline when he was pulling all that stuff he was pulling around Christmas time)

 

[PottersHands]

This is actually the cornerstone of their argument as to why it is acceptable to subject me to the discipline meant for him. That not withstanding I feel that his behavior didn't warrant discipline to begin with. They are wanting to punish him for doing something extremely loving and generous for my nephew. And it is completely lost on many who pushed for this discipline that he invited them and their children to this celebration dispte the bad blood between him and the other parents for the sake of the children.

Can you kind of see why he might not like going to your church? This kind of intrusiveness can be very irritating and these elders are being busy bodies. If you love your church just keep going and hold your head up. Their pettiness will become apparent.

 

[Poppyseed78]

It seems ironic they are trying to get your husband to return to church, by banning you from attending certain social activities. That seems incredibly counterproductive and petty. In my opinion, church elders should be able to show grace and forgiveness and welcome people with open arms to the house of God.

 

[lambkisses]

Can you kind of see why he might not like going to your church? This kind of intrusiveness can be very irritating and these elders are being busy bodies. If you love your church just keep going and hold your head up. Their pettiness will become apparent.

I don't blame my husband for any if this situation. And I accepted long ago that he doesn't like church and u have accepted that he doesn't go. In addition to this I have also respected his wishes to not tithe to the church. At the sane time he accepts that I want to keep going and that I can give a gift if I have my own money for it.
What hurts most about this situation is that I am being denied my community of faith by said community for a perceived slight by my husband.
I didn't post to complain about my husband but rather to see if there is any biblical or liturgical precedence for punishing a wife as a proxy for the husband and if my husband's actions in this particular case warranted discipline at all.
For me it was extremely embarrassing when I was denied entry to the mother's day picnic after service. I was standing there with my parents, my in laws, my brothers and their wives and children and I was told that I may not enter due to me being subject to discipline. I didn't have a ride home so my husband had to come get me. For what ever reason he decided not to use either of our vehicles but he rode up on his horse with my horse in tow there by making my ejection even more of a spectacle.

 

[lambkisses]

It seems ironic they are trying to get your husband to return to church, by banning you from attending certain social activities. That seems incredibly counterproductive and petty. In my opinion, church elders should be able to show grace and forgiveness and welcome people with open arms to the house of God.

I spoke to my father yesterday and it has a lot more to do with individuals wanting to settle scores than then wanting him back in church. My father believes that most of the congregation would be happy if he would never return and this is a bid to cause him distress by pressuring me. He thinks the endgame is to use me as a cats paw to upset my husband. Also my parents seem to think that there are issues of resentment present. Since the blow up in December I have been respecting my husband's wishers of no more tithes to the church. Whenever I have my own money I give what I can (but since the sudden implosion of my BBQ pit and cooking class business I am stuck with 2 have finished pits and no cash on hand, only since doing receptionist temp work have I started receiving extra income again ) but it is no where near what we use to tithe as a family. My dad said that there was some grumbling that the party we put on (I say we but I was no way involved in planning, I was pretty much a guest my self) was so extravagant (although I don't think it is really fair to say that a cardboard castle, a home made BBQ lunch, and some party city goody bags is exactly an over the top Gatsbyesque afaire) yet we can't come up with more than 20 dollars a week as an offering.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Sounds like you are in a small close-knit comunnity....

Before I rerspond let me review what I read!!!!!

Your husband grew up in this community and went to church most all of his life....
Your dad is an elder at this church.....????
Your husband is 26 you are 31......

how long have you been married and do you have kids????

Does your husband have parents that go to this church??
are his parents christian and did he grow up in a christian home??
Has your husband been going to church all his life??????