Chrstianity and Science - how?

ScottA · Nov 7, 2016

jordanconnect said:
I would love to get simply yes/no answers on these 4 questions to get some insight in how Christians view science.

Do Christians believe the universe has existed for 13 billion years?
Do Christians believe the Big Bang happened, and was the beginning of everything within the universe?
Do Christians believe that earth has existed for 4.5 billion years?
Do Christians believe neanderthals were living on earth 500,000 years ago?

If you wanted some insight on how the Automobile Association views mechanics, what four questions would you ask them?

JeriB · Nov 8, 2016

jordanconnect said:
I would love to get simply yes/no answers on these 4 questions to get some insight in how Christians view science.

Do Christians believe the universe has existed for 13 billion years?
Do Christians believe the Big Bang happened, and was the beginning of everything within the universe?
Do Christians believe that earth has existed for 4.5 billion years?
Do Christians believe neanderthals were living on earth 500,000 years ago?

Doesn't it depend on the Christian and how he rationalises his beliefs to the world? I no longer call myself a Christian, but even when I did I had no problem answering yes to all your questions.

Pretty much. 1,2+3: How and when God created the universe is how and when he did - wasn't for me to gainsay what he did. If some time in the future we find today's knowledge is faulty we'll correct our knowledge but it will be our knowledge, not any action of creation/evolution that was wrong.
4. Creation, evolution and extinction are some of the .... tools of God. His work, his world, his business what he does and how he does it. Who are we to disagree or declare what he can or may do?

I never understood then, and I still don't today, why some Christians find it necessary to limit God, what he did and what he does. Either you believe omnipotence is omnipotent or you limit it - but it's the self that put any limits on it. As for what Genesis says... well... folk told us what they knew then. We know a little more today than then and we'll know a little more tomorrow, kinda self-evident.

PS. Neanderthals: If I remember right, 200,000 - 40,000 BC
500,000 might be pushing it a bit.

Uber Genius · Nov 8, 2016

jordanconnect said:
Please refrain from interpreting this in the way that 'South Bound'

He just made the point that view of science is not the same as agree with certain theories.

Big Bang cosmology was rejected by atheists because of its theistic ramifications since Eddington at least.

"View of science" could be properly interpreted relying on an inductive relays on empirical method that best describes the data and then rigorously test that data deductively.

That scientific method and its limits of knowledge is the issue.

jordanconnect said:
help rectify the representation that 'South Bound' has now given me that some Christians are very defensive,

Seems like the South Bound post must have been heavily edited. But have you seem a "New Atheist"debate?

They attack "Christian strawmen" as anti-science.

13.7B is probably a better estimate on age of universe.

Over 40 lines of proof on inflationary cosmology (hot Big Bang model)

4.5 Billion year old Earth (solar system formed 4.6B) is strongly supported by dozens of different types of tests 10s of 1000s of samples

Yes to Neanderthals but remember science is a historical science when it comes to evolution. Meaning as we get more tests and collect more data, old inferences such as Neanderthals relation to humans, can change. Turns out studies a few years back suggest that they are NOT related to h. sapiens. Due to a number of test but predominantly due to mitochondrial DNA tests.

Science has been dominated by Christians historically due to the Christian view that God has made a world comprehensible to man. Man is called to discover all its secrets as many if not most were thought to further reveal the nature of God.

Science is God-given.

stephen583 · Nov 9, 2016

mark kennedy said:
There are articles in Nature, AAAS has an article, the BBC has an interesting article with a great picture from the Max Plank Institute. I think you've fallen behind in your reading, I'm at work or I'd find the Nature article.

According to the Smithsonian Institution's Department of Human Origins, Neanderthals and Cro-magnon humans (Homo Sapiens) did co-habitat, trade with each another and did interbreed.

As Homo Sapien, sapien (modern man) emerged from Africa and spread into Europe and Asia they interbred with Cro-Magnon humans which would explain the existence of Neanderthal DNA in modern humans, but you didn't get that DNA from Neanderthals, you got it from Cro-Magnon man.

You'll find on the same Smithsonian Human Origin website it is stated in no uncertain terms there is absolutely no archeological and anthropological evidence "modern man" (Homo Sapien, sapien) who originated in Africa ever had any direct contact with Neanderthals.

I believe you are confusing Cro-Magnon man with modern humans whenever you are making these Neanderthal interbreeding claims, which demonstrates your rather poor grasp on the subject of human origins.

If I were to render a guess, I would say Neanderthals are a bad candidate for the people of NOD in Genesis. The descendants of a Cro-Magnon/ modern human hybrid would be a more logical candidate.

Wunderlust · Nov 9, 2016

stephen583 said:
Aside from scientific papers, I personally interviewed a professor of anthropology with a masters degree for over an hour at Tulane University in 2004.

One person with a master's degree is not a scientific source, especially when it is in anthropology and not genetics or molecular biology who is specializing in human genome research. You may as well ask someone at the Drive Thru at McDonalds.

Job8 · Nov 9, 2016

jordanconnect said:
I would love to get simply yes/no answers on these 4 questions to get some insight in how Christians view science.

Christians have no problem with GENUINE Science. But everything you have listed is pure conjecture. As for the Big Bang, it is an attempt to remove God from creation, and attribute creation to time and chance (which is sheer nonsense).

stephen583 · Nov 9, 2016

I would disagree science attempts to remove God from the creation. Most scientists, especially astrophysicists and biologists I think would agree there is far too much evidence of some kind of intelligent design involved in the creation of the universe and life to merely be the result of time and random chance.

In an interview Albert Einstein was asked whether or not he believed in God. His response was, "Anyone who's mind can not at least imagine the unfathomable.. is already dead".

Not exactly a rousing endorsement for God, but not exactly an un-categorical denial either.

As stated in the last paragraph in post #143, many of the men who founded early science were in fact Christians, not atheists.

jordanconnect · Nov 10, 2016

So many good replies and concepts. I find it interesting that in over 100+ replies, a large portion of people have opposing/differing beliefs, whether just slightly on an insignificant thing, or on the fundamental aspects of their beliefs, despite belonging to the same religion.

Obviously Christianity is significantly broader than I thought, I didn't think this would be the case.

Also, Wikipedia has been proven to be (with science related articles) reasonably accurate (as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica too) so I think people can have reasonable confidence in the information they find on their regarding anything science related (not necessarily that the information is 'true', I cant prove that, but that it is 'as true' as most information that can be found online).

To the post mentioning time being relative (and subjective), I agree, good point.

Generally speaking, what percentage of earth's population (approx 7.5 billion people) would believe that God literally created Earth and man from nothing in the course of 6 days, and that it happened less than 10,000 years ago? I find this quite fascinating that someone could believe this so I'm curious as to whether we are talking about an infinitesimal amount of people that would truly believe this or a good portion?

I find all this very interesting so thank you too everyone who has contributed and given some info on their beliefs and findings.

Also, if you believe that the earth was created less than 6,000 years ago, and was created by god from nothing, do you then believe that every single science related phenomenon, concept, or fact, and everyone that has spoken of them, is wrong and its all just a completely made up story. Do you believe every piece of information regarding dinosaurs is just a lie? Do you believe that Stephen Hawking, Neil Degrasse Tyson and billions of other people are delusional?

YouAreAwesome · Nov 10, 2016

jordanconnect said:
So many good replies and concepts. I find it interesting that in over 100+ replies, a large portion of people have opposing/differing beliefs, whether just slightly on an insignificant thing, or on the fundamental aspects of their beliefs, despite belonging to the same religion.

Obviously Christianity is significantly broader than I thought, I didn't think this would be the case.

Also, Wikipedia has been proven to be (with science related articles) reasonably accurate (as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica too) so I think people can have reasonable confidence in the information they find on their regarding anything science related (not necessarily that the information is 'true', I cant prove that, but that it is 'as true' as most information that can be found online).

To the post mentioning time being relative (and subjective), I agree, good point.

Generally speaking, what percentage of earth's population (approx 7.5 billion people) would believe that God literally created Earth and man from nothing in the course of 6 days, and that it happened less than 10,000 years ago? I find this quite fascinating that someone could believe this so I'm curious as to whether we are talking about an infinitesimal amount of people that would truly believe this or a good portion?

I find all this very interesting so thank you too everyone who has contributed and given some info on their beliefs and findings.

Also, if you believe that the earth was created less than 6,000 years ago, and was created by god from nothing, do you then believe that every single science related phenomenon, concept, or fact, and everyone that has spoken of them, is wrong and its all just a completely made up story. Do you believe every piece of information regarding dinosaurs is just a lie? Do you believe that Stephen Hawking, Neil Degrasse Tyson and billions of other people are delusional?

Many Christians believe these things: 6000yr old earth, man etc. The reason young-earth-creationists (YEC) believe the scientists are wrong is because of two factors:

1. When man sinned (the fall), a once spiritual and perfect world exploded into the somewhat chaotic mess we have today. They also believe that dating methods are incorrect because of the changes that happened after "the fall".
2. A world-wide flood caused problems with the dating methods.

On the other hand, I am a Christian and I answered yes to all 4 questions.

As for percentage of Christians that believe YEC, I would be biased in my answer based on my own experience. I'm not sure worldwide. My inkling is that most Christians are YEC but that over time this will change.

Beaub · Nov 10, 2016

jordanconnect said:
I would love to get simply yes/no answers on these 4 questions to get some insight in how Christians view science.

Do Christians believe the universe has existed for 13 billion years?
Do Christians believe the Big Bang happened, and was the beginning of everything within the universe?
Do Christians believe that earth has existed for 4.5 billion years?
Do Christians believe neanderthals were living on earth 500,000 years ago?

ok this is what i believe and its simply my own opinion.
1 do i believe in evolution? no
2 do i believe in a 13bill year universe? no
3 do i believe in a big bang? no/possibly
4 do i believe that the earth is 4.5bill years? no.

Reason why i dont believe these things.
evolution- there has been not one single fossil found of a transitional species. IE one form changing into another form.

4.5bill year earth? i believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible.
God said he created the earth in 6 days and that isnt a parable but a statement.

13bill year universe? see the above reason but i will attempt to add my personal interpretation.
if we take as fact that God can speak everything into existence.
then we can assume that if God wanted light to shine on the earth then distance would have no meaning to a God that can speak something into existence.
IE 13bill light years is nothing to God. the light has reached us because God wanted it to.
sketchy reasoning possibly but im very much limited in my understanding of God beyond anything that is written in the Bible.

Big bang? God can chose his own way of bringing everything into existence.

a little background on my self.
i love astronomy. i watch an hour long different documentary every night on astronomy.
i find it awe inspiring that God found a way to produce heat and light in an vastly empty nothing.
think of it. something burns from a simple gas. ( yes i know that its a nuclear process not a chemical one) but still its awe inspiring.

Hawkins · Nov 10, 2016

jordanconnect said:
I would love to get simply yes/no answers on these 4 questions to get some insight in how Christians view science.

Do Christians believe the universe has existed for 13 billion years?
Do Christians believe the Big Bang happened, and was the beginning of everything within the universe?
Do Christians believe that earth has existed for 4.5 billion years?
Do Christians believe neanderthals were living on earth 500,000 years ago?

It boils down to how you would define time. What is time in terms of science?
As Einstein put it, time is not a stable physics unit but rather velocity is.

JacksBratt · Nov 10, 2016

jordanconnect said:
Generally speaking, what percentage of earth's population (approx 7.5 billion people) would believe that God literally created Earth and man from nothing in the course of 6 days, and that it happened less than 10,000 years ago? I find this quite fascinating that someone could believe this so I'm curious as to whether we are talking about an infinitesimal amount of people that would truly believe this or a good portion?

What does it matter "how many" believe anything?
The truth is not a democracy. There is no sense in basing what you believe on "how many others" believe the scenario.

jordanconnect said:
Also, if you believe that the earth was created less than 6,000 years ago, and was created by god from nothing, do you then believe that every single science related phenomenon, concept, or fact, and everyone that has spoken of them, is wrong and its all just a completely made up story.

Well, of course not. It would be absurd to say that:

"every single science related phenomenon, concept, or fact, and everyone that has spoken of them, is wrong"

What I do believe is that the Bible is far far more certain of a source of history for the beginning of our universe. Remember, every bit of "truth" or every "theory" from before recorded history is assumption, guesswork and extrapolation of tiny bits of information into grandiose stories that are presented as solid truth. I would never bet my soul on such "science".

I will trust my soul on the word of God, however.

So, if "science" is not observable, testable and repeatable, I'll go with God's word.

The way I see it is, God is totally capable of doing it just as the Bible says. Why would I need to create any other method that is not mentioned. Even when Christ was talking about the life we will have everlasting, He punctuated by saying "if it was not so, I would have told you".

Do you not think He would have done the same of the events of creation?

jordanconnect said:
Do you believe every piece of information regarding dinosaurs is just a lie?

I think the dinosaurs were alive at the same time man was. I believe that the atmosphere was much different then. It had a higher barometric pressure and higher oxygen level. In this atmosphere, these giants survived as did the large quantity of plant life they would have needed. When the barometric pressure dropped and the O2 level as well, they died off as it was not livable for them. Check the proof in the air bubbles in amber resin, found from this time period.
Check the scripture talking about behemoth and leviathan. Tell me, is the description of behemoth not the perfect description of a brontosaurus?

Yet people, even Christians, cannot gather enough faith in their God, compared to the wisdom of men, to believe.

jordanconnect said:
Do you believe that Stephen Hawking, Neil Degrasse Tyson and billions of other people are delusional?

Absolutely not. Neil Degrasse Tyson is a victim of the academia that fills the students heads with atheistic views and condemns anyone who does not follow with the set status quo of these topics.

Stephen Hawking is a brilliant man, yet, we are not even certain if the things we are told that he is saying are his own words anymore.

I know, tinfoil hat statement. However, at this point in time, anything is possible.

As for the billions of other people. Again, products of our academic system, the world over. Just watch how much flak I will get for this post. Now, imagine being a student in a high school or university and attempting to disagree with the "solid fact hoaxes and theories" they are being brainwashed with.

Other billions of people don't even give it a thought. They could care less. They are too worried about winning a lottery or making it check to check, feeding their kids, finding a relationship, who's winning the football game, getting custody of their kids and other things life demands.

They could care less what the bible, Neil or Steven believe. Or me.

transcon · Nov 12, 2016

jordanconnect said:
I would love to get simply yes/no answers on these 4 questions to get some insight in how Christians view science.

Do Christians believe the universe has existed for 13 billion years?
Do Christians believe the Big Bang happened, and was the beginning of everything within the universe?
Do Christians believe that earth has existed for 4.5 billion years?
Do Christians believe neanderthals were living on earth 500,000 years ago?

Here's my take:

1. Probably, at least that long.
2. Works for me.
3. Yes.
4. Can't help you with that one.

Does not Scripture say "Our God is in the heavens, He does whatever He pleases," or words to that effect? So then, is not the God of the Bible also the God of science? Did He not give us inquiring minds to delve into science, which I believe is the window into God's handiwork, and see what makes Him tick? If God wanted to use a "big bang" to create the universe, He would. If God wanted to create the earth in six, 24-hour periods, or six undetermined periods of time, He could. If God wanted life forms to evolve from a single cell, that's what would happen. If God wanted to create man by way of Neanderthals, He would. And so what if He did? We have scientific evidence, by way of extensive research, that supports a very old universe, a very old earth, and different stages of human development, so there you go. It matters not to me; I believe that the Bible tells us what happened, and science tells us how.

God is God, and however He wants to make all of this come to pass is fine with me; I'm just happy to be here. I dare not put God in a box, and tell Him that He must act in accordance with how I (or anybody else, for that matter) read and interpret Scripture. If I did, He would probably either laugh so hard He'd wet Himself, or tell me that I can go to hell, which is where I'd end up anyway if I wasn't a believer.

Sorry for the long, nebulous post, but it's my very first one, and I guess I'm making up for lost time, lol.

Steve Petersen · Nov 12, 2016

jordanconnect said:
I would love to get simply yes/no answers on these 4 questions to get some insight in how Christians view science.

Do Christians believe the universe has existed for 13 billion years?
Do Christians believe the Big Bang happened, and was the beginning of everything within the universe?
Do Christians believe that earth has existed for 4.5 billion years?
Do Christians believe neanderthals were living on earth 500,000 years ago?

Depends on your definition of 'Christian.' This thread will lend itself too easily to the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Truthfrees · Nov 14, 2016

MOD HAT
Posts have been removed for discussing each other rather than the topic.

Please don't make derogatory personal comments about each other.

Sketcher · Nov 14, 2016

jordanconnect said:
Do Christians believe the universe has existed for 13 billion years?

Some do.

jordanconnect said:
Do Christians believe the Big Bang happened, and was the beginning of everything within the universe?

Some do. What I find unfortunate is that many Christians do not know that Lemaitre, the scientist who provided that theory was a Christian and that it demanded that many atheists give up their philosophical stance of an eternal universe.

jordanconnect said:
Do Christians believe that earth has existed for 4.5 billion years?

Some do.

jordanconnect said:
Do Christians believe neanderthals were living on earth 500,000 years ago?

Some do.

ViaCrucis · Nov 15, 2016

jordanconnect said:
Obviously Christianity is significantly broader than I thought, I didn't think this would be the case.

There's an estimated 2.3 billion Christians on the planet, split several hundred denominations and traditions. While Catholics and Orthodox make up the majority of that (Catholicism, officially, is fine with what science has to say on these subjects, but leaves individual beliefs up to individuals so it doesn't mandate any dogmatic position one way or the other; and it often seems that Orthodox are somewhat divided on the issue) there are still the hundreds of various denominations that fall under the category of Protestant. And just because two people belong to the same tradition, the same denomination, or even are members of the same congregation doesn't necessarily mean they will agree with one another.

Exceptionally few churches actually make these things a matter of dogmatic importance, the vast majority of Christian traditions and denominations pretty much leave these sorts of matters up to individuals to make up their own mind. Complete uniformity in belief never happens, because even some of the most rigid of churches aren't likely going to proscribe dogmatic positions on literally everything; and the vast majority of churches are only going to really concern themselves with major points of theology: e.g. the Nicene Creed.

For example, in the Lutheran tradition it's what is found in the Lutheran Confessions that is really going to be considered critically important, and they literally have nothing to say on the topic of this thread because they were written almost five hundred years ago and with very specific purposes in mind. So for the majority of Lutherans the age of the universe isn't going to be a major issue of faith, whereas the doctrine of Justification absolutely is. And individual Lutheran opinions, even within the same denomination or even congregation, will vary from person to person; but what will be consistent is actual Lutheran teaching.

That's just one example using my own tradition. That can also largely be applied to virtually any other tradition.

Christianity is a big tent.

-CryptoLutheran

Coreece · Nov 16, 2016

jordanconnect said:
I would love to get simply yes/no answers on these 4 questions to get some insight in how Christians view science.

Asking for a simple yes/no answer doesn't warrant much discussion, nor does it provide any insight into how christians view science.

Interestingly enough, yes/no answers are all one needs to know.

You're either with us or against us, right?

If your against Hillary, you're for Trump! You're a racist xenophobe. (pardon the redundancy.)

If you're for Hillary, you're a liberal moron. (pardon the redundancy)

Liberalism has stifled the freedom of speech. If you dare voice your concerns about border security you're a racist. If you dare voice your concerns about immigration, you're a xenophobe - it doesn't matter that Obama has already suspended the refugee program twice during his presidency.

If you only want yes/no - black/white, then you really don't care about the other side, do you? You're not interested in discussion, are you?

If you only want yes/no, then you are only looking for trouble - which is why Trump is president.

ViaCrucis · Nov 16, 2016

Coreece said:
Asking for a simple yes/no answer doesn't warrant much discussion, nor does it provide any insight into how christians view science.

Interestingly enough, yes/no answers are all one needs to know.

You're either with us or against us, right?

If your against Hillary, you're for Trump! You're a racist xenophobe. (pardon the redundancy.)

If you're for Hillary, you're a liberal moron. (pardon the redundancy)

Liberalism has stifled the freedom of speech. If you dare voice your concerns about border security you're a racist. If you dare voice your concerns about immigration, you're a xenophobe - it doesn't matter that Obama has already suspended the refugee program twice during his presidency.

If you only want yes/no - black/white, then you really don't care about the other side, do you? You're not interested in discussion, are you?

If you only want yes/no, then you are only looking for trouble - which is why Trump is president.

Perhaps you might be interested in grinding your axe somewhere else where it is more fitting. This is not only not the thread for this, this isn't the board for this.

-CryptoLutheran

Coreece · Nov 16, 2016

I must apologize - I just went to the "new post" section without regard to the actual forum topic.

Too many rules - too many laws - sooo legalistic. Our thoughts are held captive. No wonder I avoid these places...

If you want to "explore christianity," how about opening up a Bible and going to Church?

Chrstianity and Science - how?

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