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Christ's Atonement?

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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Chester
Thanks Reformationist. One other question. How do you interpret the parable starting at Matthew 18:23? To me, it looks like the king, i.e. God, forgives the servants debt without exacting any payment at all. IOW, God freely forgives the debt without requiring a payment.

That's absolutely true.  That parable also represents mankind.  Just for the record, we are the servant who was forgiven much but, in turn, often are very unforgiving of others transgressions.  That's the way God's grace is enacted in our lives; We are fallen and unresponsive to our Creator and He, in His sovereignty, redeems us while we are yet His enemy and do not seek after Him.  Our actions in our redeemed state are a result of our salvation, never a means to obtain it.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Chester
That's because the king is not paid. Don't you see, you're telling me that God the Father was paid to forgive sinners but the parable implies that the Father was not paid to forgive at all. Absorbing the loss is not the same as being paid, in fact, it shows that He was not paid.

Chester it's a parable.  If you notice, in this parable, the king was owed a great, even unpayable, debt by his servant.  We owe our Creator a great, even upayable, debt for our transgressions.  In the parable, however, the servant begs for mercy.  There is a very important difference here than in the life of the unregenerate.  The unregenerate do not ask God for mercy because they don't recognize His authority.  Though they can see that God must exist they don't glorify Him, nor are they thankful to Him (Rom 1:20-23).

Consider this analogy:

A man creates a formula that will bring a person back from the dead.  The man is under no obligation, obviously, to give it to anyone.  He goes to the morgue and says to the twenty bodies, "Okay everyone, I have a formula that will bring you back to life, and it's yours for free, no payment required."

Now, the Arminian view of salvation would state that the corpses would get up and go get the formula and be brought back to life.  That would, of course, be impossible.  Dead people don't hear, acknowledge, walk, or swallow.

The reformed view is that the man goes to ten of the corpses and pours the formula down their unresponsive, unresisting throats.  They are brought back to life because of his actions, not theirs.  Now they are alive and can see the gift they were given.  They can acknowlege the greatness of the gift.  Additionally, they can see the effects of not receiving the gift, as there are still some people that are dead.  What this brings about is not a feeling of superiority.  Rather, it brings about humility, gratitude and a desire to put that gift to good use.

Obviously even this example falls short because the man in my examply did not create the people that were dead.

The more we do to enforce the view that we are saved because we "go forward and accept the gift" the more we lessen the unmerited gift of salvitic grace that God bestows upon His enemy, us.  The result is that we will be less thankful and will credit ourselves with far, far too much, which lessens the credit we give to God for redeeming us. That's why Christ is called our Sav(e)ior, because He saves us.  If we are saved because of something we did then we, at the very least, credit ourselves with helping God out with saving us.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Chester
Reformationist, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you but I'm getting conflicting info from you. Before, you told me that God requires a payment for Him to forgive our debt, but now, you're telling me that He forgives the debt without requiring a payment. :confused:

If I've ever said that God does not require payment for the transgressions of mankind I apologize.  That is not true.  What I've always meant was that because God is righteous and just He had to exact His righteous judgement upon an object of His wrath.  God said, "The wages of sin are death" so there must be a serving of His judgement.  The problem that mankind faces after the Fall is that he is unable to serve as a worthwhile propitiation.  In other words, he cannot pay the price for his own sins, much less the sins of others.  That's why God had to make provision for man.  He sent Jesus to suffer in our stead, to be accounted with the unrighteousness of man.  There had to be payment.  We just couldn't make it.

God bless
 
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Anthony

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Originally posted by Chester
Okay . . . then how do you reconcile this parable, which illustrates that God freely forgives the debt without requiring a payment, with the belief that God requires a payment to forgive sinners?

Chester

I think you're getting hung up on the word "payment", like we need to do something, or purchase something, or it's an exchange or barter. God forgave the debt, without any requirement or need to. We simply need to be reconcilied, cleaned-up. We cannot get to the Father, with a sin stained soul.

Also in the parable, the King forgave the debt of the servant. But that is not the whole story of the parable, there is more. After his debt was absorbed by the King, the servant did not think about what happen or appreciate it. So what did he do to the guy who owed him $20? There is a bigger picture here.

 
 
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reeann

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Originally posted by blindfaith
When I first became a Christian, I got involved in the WOF movement, without even realizing it ~ I knew nothing.

It takes a very long time to get the false teachings out of your head once you're out ~ bad, bad stuff.

As far as I know, Christ's Atonement was completed at the Cross.  If it wasn't, why would He say right before He died, "it is finished".  If he needed to go to Hell to "wrestle", wouldn't He have said, "I'm almost done here, but I hafta go wrestle with Satan for awhile to complete......what?"

Lets not forget, to us satan is a roaring lion, to God, he is nothing, he has to ask God permission to do anything.  Since Jesus is God, LOL< RIGHT! satan could torment Him!! LOL

more than likely it was the other way around!!
 
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reeann

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Originally posted by Reformationist


Physical death was only part of it.  When Adam fell from grace and was cast from the Garden he did not die physically right away.  The death he experienced was a spiritual death that involved complete separation from his Father.  It is the same state we are in until God saves us.  We are basically dead men and women walking around.  When Christ suffered in our stead He not only physically died but also experienced the anguish of separation from His Father, with whom He had a perfect relationship.

 

Amen :bow:
 
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reeann

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Sin = death (spiritual)
Christ's death (spiritual and physical) = payment of the penalty and giving us back spiritual life

Christ paid ALL the debt. The parable indicates that yes, the man's sin =debt owed; but that the King (God) has the power to forgive it, no charge to us. Why??? Because Christ paid it already
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Chester
Okay . . . then how do you reconcile this parable, which illustrates that God freely forgives the debt without requiring a payment, with the belief that God requires a payment to forgive sinners?

Because the Bible says that God wrath must be appeased.  His penalty according to His Law must remain in effect.  If it didn't, if all God did was say, "You know what, where gonna go ahead and forget about the whole wages of sin being death thing" then He wouldn't be just.  His judgement/punishment had to be served upon the righteousness of Christ for Him to show mercy for our transgressions.

1 John 4:10
In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.  In this is love, NOT THAT WE LOVED GOD, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Someone had to quench God's wrath (serve as a propitiation).  That "someone" had to be a worthy substitute.  To be worthy the sacrifice must be sinless.  There was only one sinless person who ever lived, Jesus.

God bless
 
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Chester

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Originally posted by Anthony
God forgave the debt, without any requirement or need to. We simply need to be reconcilied, cleaned-up.

Anthony, isn't forgiving the debt the same as being "reconciled/cleaned-up"?


Originally posted by reeann
Christ paid ALL the debt. The parable indicates that yes, the man's sin =debt owed; but that the King (God) has the power to forgive it, no charge to us. Why??? Because Christ paid it already [/B]

But Reeann, the parable does not say the king was paid at all, not by his son nor anyone else for that matter, the king simply "forgave him the debt". There is "no charge to us" because the king is not exacting any payment, not because someone paid the king in the servants stead.


Reformationist:

Simply saying, "Because the Bible says that God's wrath must be appeased", does not explain to me how you understand this parable. I see this parable as being inconsistent with the belief that God requires a payment to forgive sinners, but you don't. Please explain to me how you understand this parable to be consistent with your beliefs.
 
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reeann

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quote:
Originally posted by reeann
Christ paid ALL the debt. The parable indicates that yes, the man's sin =debt owed; but that the King (God) has the power to forgive it, no charge to us. Why??? Because Christ paid it already [/B]


But Reeann, the parable does not say the king was paid at all, not by his son nor anyone else for that matter, the king simply "forgave him the debt". There is "no charge to us" because the king is not exacting any payment, not because someone paid the king in the servants stead.


I beg to differ. The King had the power to forgive the debt; but there was still the debt due. What the parable doesn't tell you (and the rest of the Bible does) is that Jesus paid that debt.

Here is the parable in its 'entirety':

The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[6]
23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[7] was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.[8] He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

The whole point of this parable was to illustrate to the disciples that as God has paid for your debt and forgiven you; so should you forgive your brother (mankind).
 
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Chester

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I beg to differ. The King had the power to forgive the debt; but there was still the debt due.

The king not only had the power to forgive the debt, he actually did forgive the debt. To forgive a debt means that the debt is no longer due. It's not correct to say that a forgiven debt still needs to be paid because if it does, then the debt has not been forgiven.


What the parable doesn't tell you (and the rest of the Bible does) is that Jesus paid that debt.

Did Jesus forget to mention this in his parable?


The whole point of this parable was to illustrate to the disciples that as God has paid for your debt and forgiven you; so should you forgive your brother (mankind).

Not so fast. You just told me that the parable doesn't tell us that Jesus paid the debt, now you're telling me the parable illustrates that God paid our debt? :confused:
 
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Chester

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Anthony, several posts ago, you told me that we need to be cleaned-up and that "Jesus paid the price to have us washed". You also say that, "God forgave the debt, without any requirement or need to", which is what this parable illustrates, and you just confirmed that forgiving the debt is being cleaned-up. So, my point is, since God freely forgave the debt, there is no need for Jesus to pay the price to have us washed because if Jesus had to pay the price to have us washed, then God does not freely forgive the debt.
 
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Anthony

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Let's unbundle things here a bit, I think we getting tied into knots.

1. The parable's main point is about "forgiveness" in general. The parable was Jesus' answer to Peter's question. "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" and ends with the comment ""This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

2. Your separate comment regarding God the Father, I would state it this way. God the Father can not accept sin, He can not freely accept sin. Jesus Christ is our advocate. You're mixing and explanation contained in an one parable, to overall understanding of salvation contained in the entire bible.
 
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Chester

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1. The parable's main point is about "forgiveness" in general. The parable was Jesus' answer to Peter's question. "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" and ends with the comment ""This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

I agree, but when you forgive your brother from your heart, do you require some kind of restitution (a price to be paid for reconciliation) in order to forgive him? The parable illustrates that you should not precisely because our heavenly Father does not. All I want to know is how do you interpret this parable with the understanding that "Jesus paid the price to have us washed", which seems to be inconsistent with what the parable is teaching.


2. Your separate comment regarding God the Father, I would state it this way. God the Father can not accept sin, He can not freely accept sin. Jesus Christ is our advocate. You're mixing and explanation contained in an one parable, to overall understanding of salvation contained in the entire bible.

But Jesus used this parable to explain something fundamental about our atonement, i.e. God freely forgives us without requiring the payment of a debt.
 
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reeann

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Let's unbundle things here a bit, I think we getting tied into knots.

1. The parable's main point is about "forgiveness" in general. The parable was Jesus' answer to Peter's question. <I>"Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"</I> and ends with the comment <I>""This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."</I>

2. Your <B>separate comment</B> regarding God the Father, I would state it this way. God the Father can not accept sin, He can not freely accept sin. Jesus Christ is our advocate. You're mixing and explanation contained in an <I>one</I> parable, to overall understanding of salvation contained in the entire bible.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Yep, thats a good synopsis.&nbsp; Chester, I don't know how to explain it to you any clearer.&nbsp; It appears you just don't agree.&nbsp; :)
 
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