Christ's 2nd Coming was in the 1st Century -- 7 Proofs

[Didaskomenos]

Sorry if I gave you that false impression -that is definitely NOT where I'm coming from

Good! I thought we were talking past one another

Well "Didasko" you've "taught" me something -I couldn't have said it any better. The event was actual, factual and very real -yet spoke more deeply [metaphorically] of greater things to come.

Well, for the record, my name doesn't mean I claim to be a teacher - it's actually a passive participle which means (albeit anarthrous, but try to overlook that) "one who is being taught," rather than "one who teaches" (didaskolos). I keep looking for truth, and if I inform anyone else along the way, it's often by accident!

 

[davo]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Well, for the record, my name doesn't mean I claim to be a teacher - it's actually a passive participle which means (albeit anarthrous, but try to overlook that) "one who is being taught," rather than "one who teaches" (didaskolos).

I stand corrected [indicatively ]

 

[Didaskomenos]

Shoot! Now I realize I've got all these people who know a little Greek thinking I'm some self-proclaimed guru! I wish I could change names.

 

[jenlu]

Project...

By no means do I believe that one's eschatological beliefs are the make or breaker of one's salvation...but I do believe one's understsanding of the Bible can and will enhance one's relationship with their Heavenly Father...eschatology is a big part of the Bible...so understanding it helps (in my opinion) one's relationship with Him...

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by GW


Paul's passage in 2 Thess 2 shows that the event was already underway. The son of perdition was already alive. He was at that time being restrained from his takeover of the Temple. This shows without question that it was a first century event. It is important to note that this was fullfilled entirely within a decade of Paul's writing to the Thessalonians.

The jewish Zealot-leader Manahem and his followers murdered the High Priest, robbed the Roman garrison, and siezed the Temple to start the armed Revolt in AD 66 from the Temple headquarters in Jerusalem. The victory over the Temple priests and rulers appeared to many to be God's blessing and purpose for the Revolt against Rome. The Zealots had been trying to gain control of the whole Nation and the Temple from about the time of Christ's birth. Menahem was a third generation terrorist rebel and was the son (or grandson) of Judas the Galilean rebel mentioned in the book of Acts.

Menahem is a CENTRAL figure to the Revolt and is considered one of the most powerful Jewish Messiahs of the 1st century for having successfully raided the Masada armory, securing an armed jewish force to fight the Revolt against Rome from the headquarters of the Holy Temple! Entirely apocalyptic.

The Nation had become a hotbed of Revolt-styled apocalypticism, and Josephus blames the Zealots as THE incendiary group among the Israelites that ignited the tinderbox and ruined the whole nation.

King Manahem of Israel literally fulfilled the sign of 2 Thess 2:4-7 and ordered the commands that locked the Nation into its final course of ruin and Revolt.

The Roman Armies came at that time to surround Jerusalem, and in response to all this and the Christians heeded the signs and fled Jerusalem according to Luke 21:20-22 and 2 Thess 2:4.


GW

posted by tericl2
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

Is the Holy Spirit gone?

I'll ask again...is the Holy Spirit gone? And you conveniently deleted the last few words of this verse in order to avoid the question. Has the Holy Spirit been taken out of the way?
I also saw no reference to King Manahem proclaiming himself to be God and over God.

posted by tericl2
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed , whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Seems we would know about this!

Where is the splendor?

 

[jenlu]

Why is the one who holds it back the Holy Spirit?...Does it have to be the Holy Spirit?

 

[davo]

Originally posted by jenlu
Why is the one who holds it back the Holy Spirit?...Does it have to be the Holy Spirit?

Why indeed This again is just another dispensational assumption brought to the bible through faulty exegesis.

davo

 

[aggie03]

Originally posted by jenlu
Project...

By no means do I believe that one's eschatological beliefs are the make or breaker of one's salvation...but I do believe one's understsanding of the Bible can and will enhance one's relationship with their Heavenly Father...eschatology is a big part of the Bible...so understanding it helps (in my opinion) one's relationship with Him...

I think that every aspect of what we believe and profess is extremely important.

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

Galatians 1:8,9

Paul obviously thought that every aspect of our beliefs were important enough to let us know twice that if we try to teach others anything other than the one true gospel that we are to be condemned. So I think that we should put forth every effort to learn the truth that the Bible teaches.

 

[NumberOneSon]

I think that every aspect of what we believe and profess is extremely important.

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

Galatians 1:8,9

Paul obviously thought that every aspect of our beliefs were important enough to let us know twice that if we try to teach others anything other than the one true gospel that we are to be condemned. So I think that we should put forth every effort to learn the truth that the Bible teaches.

I too feel that what we believe and profess is extremely important. But I do not believe that "every aspect of our beliefs" constitute the gospel.

The Judiazers in the Book of Galatians taught a different gospel by declaring that all gentiles must be circumcised and follow the law of Moses to be saved. But I don't think disagreements over things like predestination or eschatology changes the requirements of the gospel, unlike the Judiazers' doctrine.

Do I hate doctrinal disunity in the Church? You bet I do, and I look forward in earnest to a time when many of the disagreements will be resolved, for the wellbeing of the Church and as a witness to the world. But I at least do not see most doctrinal agreements affecting the definition of the gospel.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[GW]

tericl2:

Where do you come up with the Holy Spirit in 2 Thess 2?

Read 2 Thess 2:4-7 carefully. You will see that the son of perdition was already alive and was at work and was being restrained. The son of perdition is a first-century man that took over the nation of Israel from the Temple within 10-15 years maximum from the time Paul wrote.

God bless,
GW

 

[Shaggy]

Do you guys realize Christ hasn't returned yet?

 

[davo]

Originally posted by GW
Where do you come up with the Holy Spirit in 2 Thess 2?
Read 2 Thess 2:4-7 carefully. You will see that the son of perdition was already alive and was at work and was being restrained. The son of perdition is a first-century man that took over the nation of Israel from the Temple within 10-15 years maximum from the time Paul wrote.

Right on the money GW! -good to see you mate

davo

 

[Shaggy]

It looks like that is misinterpreted, You guys are confusing! Do you deny that Jesus is Returning? Even after all the scripture available to you?

 

[GTX]

You said it Shag!

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Shaggy
It looks like that is misinterpreted, You guys are confusing! Do you deny that Jesus is Returning? Even after all the scripture available to you?

It's not that we're confusing, it's that you're confused.

It is BECAUSE of all the scripture available to us that we affirm the truth of past fulfillment, and continue to herald the fact that Christ came, on time, within the lifetime of His disciples generation, exactly when and as He promised to.

 

[Shaggy]

That just confirms that your confused.

 

[Shaggy]

Can I interest you in the truth, so that you may rejoice at Christs coming?

 

[aggie03]

Yes you could interest me in the Truth, which is the word of God - I would like to see some scripture for what you are claiming to be the Truth. Anyone can espouse what they believe, but can they back it up with scripture - that's what I want to see.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by GW
#1 - Jesus Came in Their Generation

If you're talking about this verse (Matthew 24:34)...

Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

...the greek word translated as generation is "genea" which normally signifies familial relationships, which is why some translations point out that this could also be translated as "race" (in this case the Jews). As some have tried to exterminate the Jews, this promise is quite reassuring.

#2 - Christ Came "In His Kingdom"

It seems to me that the plain meaning of Luke 17:21 is not that His Kingdom would be unobservable, but that they were mistaken to think of it as being a political kingdom. Young's Literal Translation even translates basileia as "reign" which implies that Jesus was talking about Him reigning in our hearts.

IMO it truly tortures the text to say that "Therefore if the coming of the Kingdom was going to be unobservable, then it follows that the Coming of the King in that Kingdom was also going to be unobservable." This would contradict the fact that Jesus also said just 3 verses later that...

For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

Then in Luke 21, He says quite clearly that THEY WILL SEE, and LOOK UP.

27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

Mark 13:35-37 tells us to watch for His return, which contradicts the assertion that His return is unobservable.

35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming--in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning-- 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!"

#3 - Christ Came "In the Glory of the Father"

I simply cannot decipher the reasoning here, so I have no response. I don't see how this has anything to do with Christ returning in the 1st century.

#4 - Christ Came as a "Day of the Lord" Event - (Day of Yawheh)

The Day of the Lord is always surrounded by significant celestial signs, including the sun going dark, the moon turning to the color of blood, and the visible (and quite spectacular) return of Jesus.

#5 - Christ "Came With Clouds" -- Rev 14:14-20

Again, this reasoning just eludes me. I don't see how this has anything to do with Christ returning in the 1st century.

#6 - Christ Came Upon 1st-Century Sardis "as a Thief in the Night"

This is an admonition to be ready. It in no way negates the fact that Jesus said His coming would be so spectacularly visible that His return would be unmistakable. Matthew 24:44...

44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

#7 - Jesus Said: "The World Sees Me No More"

(Referring to John 14 -- How long is "no more"? We maintain that "no more" means "no more.")

That's going to come as quite a shock to those who thought they saw the resurrected Christ.

 

[GTX]

Yeah and how about the fact that the book of revelation was written in 85 AD?