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Christ's 2nd Coming was in the 1st Century -- 7 Proofs

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by GW, Jun 15, 2002.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hi everyone. We all know that 7 is one of God's greatest numbers. So, here we go with 7 proofs of our Lord's great second coming back in the first century...



    #1 - Jesus Came in Their Generation - The Last Days Generation
    As we all know, Jesus promised his apostles that they would be the ones to witness the endtimes signs as well as His return in their generation (Matthew 24:33-34; Matt 23:36). Jesus promised to return in the lifetimes of his apostles (Matthew 10:22-23; John 21:21-22; Matthew 16:27-28), for they were the Last Days generation (Heb 1:1-2; James 5:3; 1 Cor 10:11; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:15-17; Heb 9:26). The Last Days signify the last days of the Old Testamental Age.


    #2 - Christ Came "In His Kingdom"
    The nature of Christ's Parousia is confirmed by a comparison of Matt. 16:27-28 and Lk. 17:21. We note that in Matt. 16:27-28 Jesus taught openly that His Coming was going to be "in His Kingdom." In Lk. 17:21, He taught that the coming of His Kingdom was going to be unobservable. Therefore if the coming of the Kingdom was going to be unobservable, then it follows that the Coming of the King in that Kingdom was also going to be unobservable.


    #3 - Christ Came "In the Glory of the Father"
    The coming of Jesus was to be "in the glory of the Father" (Matthew 16:27) -- i.e., it was to be as Father Yahweh always came to Israel. Yahweh was famous for his cloud-comings and apocalyptic comings down to earth (see: Isaiah 19:1-2; 2 Sam 22:10-14; Deut 33:2; Isa 31:3-8; Psalm 97:2-5; Ezek 30:3; Ps 104:3; Nah 1:3; Ex 34:5; Judges 5:4-7; Jer 4:13; Zeph 1:14-15; Psalm 68:32-35; Isa 31). Therefore Christ came in AD 66-70 as Yahweh did in those passages. Christ came back in that generation (Matthew 24:33-34), and Christ's glorification had returned him to his former glory He had with Yahweh before the world ever began (John 17:5) -- so his return came in Yahweh's power and glory.


    #4 - Christ Came as a "Day of the Lord" Event - (Day of Yawheh)
    Preterists understand that Christ's coming was a "Day of the Lord," also known by the phrase "Day of the Lord's Vengeance" (see Jer 46:10; Isa 61:2). Jesus confirms for us that AD 66-70 was the day of the Lord's Vengeance (see Luke 21:20-22 and compare 21:22 to Isa 61:2)! Biblically speaking, such periods of the Lord's vengeance are times of disasters and wars waged upon nations and individuals by Yahweh in real history, and AD 66-70 was the greatest Day of the Lord in Israel's History. It was Israel's Great Tribulation. Undoubtedly, it was this Day of the Lord that the 1st century apostles and saints prophesied they would live to see (1 Cor 1:7-8; Phil 1:10, 1:6; Heb 10:25; 1 Thess 5:23) -- AD 66-70 was the Day of the Lord they spoke of just decades before it transpired. We can see also that Jesus told the rulers of Israel that when he would come to them as the "Lord of the Vineyard" he would be the Stone that would grind them to powder (Matthew 21:40-45) -- they understood that he spake this of them (Matthew 21:45).


    #5 - Christ "Came With Clouds" -- Rev 14:14-20
    Coming and going with clouds is a consistent biblical theme for the comings and goings of divine beings and saints (see: Dan 7:13; Rev 11:12; Isa 19:1-2; 2 Sam 22:10-14; Ps 104:3). "Clouds" often signifies judgment and doom (Ez 30:3; Nah 1:3-5). We have an undeniable example in Revelation 14:14-20 where Christ is depicted in a "cloud-coming," and it is clearly in the realm of the heavenlies -- Christ is depicted there as Yahweh, the mighty ruler and judge over Heaven and Earth (Matt 28:18). Preterists note that while Christ comes in the heavenlies in that Rev 14 passage, it causes calamities upon the earth -- see Rev 14:20. This is how the jews understood Yahweh to come in O.T. times, and the apostle John is depicting Christ as equal to Yahweh and doing exactly as Yahweh had always done in His judgments upon nations. Rev 14:14-20 shows us what a "cloud-coming" means and its precise spiritual, powerful, nature.


    #6 - Christ Came Upon 1st-Century Sardis "as a Thief in the Night"
    Everyone knows about Christ's teaching that he would come as a "Thief in the Night" -- Jesus gives this teaching in Matthew 24:43. That coming came upon the 1st century Church of Sardis in Rev 3:1-3. It was also promised to come upon the enemies of the Thessalonians (but not overtake the Thessalonians themselves) in 1 Thess 5:2-9. This places the event firmly in the 1st century.


    #7 - Jesus Said: "The World Sees Me No More"
    In John 14:19 and 17:11, Jesus stated plainly that this world would see him no more. How long is "no more"? We maintain that "no more" means "no more." Jesus goes on from that passage to explain that He was to be seen on earth thereafter in and through his universal Body, the Church (John 14:19-23, 17:20-23; -- compare to Eph 1:22-23; Eph 5:30-32; 1 Cor 12:27; Rom 12:5). The TRUE temple, listed as the body of Jesus Christ in John 2:19-22, is also now the eternal Church-Temple as one of the great mysteries of the Faith (Eph 5:30-32; 2 Cor 6:16). We can't explain mysteries, we can only affirm them. Indeed God is here and now walks among His people forever (2 Cor 6:16) -- he is the Lord of all heaven and earth (Matt 28:18) and is the Prince of the kings of the earth (Rev 1:5).


    With you in the Victory of Christ,
    GW
     
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  2. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Reading Matthew 23 is very interesting. In synopsis: If someone tells you that the Christ has returned, do not believe him unless you have seen these signs. Hardly evidence that the Christ is to return during the lifetime of his then disciples.

    The interpretation of John 21:21-22 to mean that Jesus would return during the lifetime of a given disciple is debunked explicitly by the Bible itself - and in so many words - and in the very next sentence at that. Jhn 21:23
    synopsis of the meaning of Jesus's answer to Peter's question - "That is my business, not yours."

    Matthew 16:27-28 - At least on this one the reader might have some excuse for believing that Jesus was promising to return during the lifetime of the listeners. I'll amend that - the reader DOES have some excuse. The passage is worded in a way that can very easily lead to such a conclusion. That "coming in his kingdom" is rather compelling... until you read the Greek, that is. The word translated as "coming" can mean either "arriving" or "returning" - "coming in his kingdom" in this passage could be alternatively rendered accurately as either "arriving" in his kingdom or "returning" to his kingdom. It does not, and cannot, mean returning "FROM" his kingdom, because the word rendered here as "coming" has only the connotations of moving towards or being established in... If the passage was to denote Christ's second coming, one would need to see a "coming FROM" his kingdom, "returning FROM" his kingdom or words to that effect.

    If I get the time and have the inclination, I might address more of the claims at a later date.
     
  3. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Thunderchild, how is it that "you" are reading it as being -FROM his kingdom? :scratch: "In" means "in" -why are you saying FROM, it isn't anywhere in the greek text. It can be rendered "appear" as well -hence coming, returning or appearing "in" His kingdom.

    davo
     
  4. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,655
    Atheist
    Private
    Let's take a look at Rev 1:7.

    "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."


    Let me guess, "every eye" means something else, and, "all the tribes of the earth" is not what it appears to be saying. Correct?

    John
     
  5. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    No John, "every eye" means all those in that generation i.e., the tribes of the Land -Israel, as Jesus said. He even said it specifically to Caiaphas:

    Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

    davo
     
  6. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    It does not say that, davo. You put the extra qualifiers in there, to fit your doctrine.
     
  7. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hi John.

    That very cloud coming of Rev 1:7 is depicted fully in Revelation 14:14-20 -- the passage shows us unquestionably an event that takes place in the heavenly realms. Do you see this?

    Next, Yahweh came many, many times -- Jesus' coming is a mirror action, proving his equality and divinity with Yahweh. Yahweh came down and shot his arrows at Saul and his armies, destroying the earth and the heavens at the time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh came down and shot his arrows over Greece (Zechariah 9:13-14); Yahweh came down riding a cloud to beat up on Egypt (Isa 19:1-2); Yahweh made bare his Holy Arm in the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10); Yahweh came to the Israelites at Sinai and Seir with Ten Thousand of His Saints and led a march on the fields of Edom (Deut 33:2; Judges 5:4-5); Yahweh destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8). So also did Christ do these things when "the Lord of the Vineyard came" in AD 66-70 and was to them the Stone that crushed them to powder and removed the Kingdom of God from them (see Matthew 21:40-45).

    Quite simply, Jesus came "In the Glory of Yahweh" (Matt 16:27/Luke 9:26) as I also pointed out in #3 in the opening post. Jesus came as Yahweh had been known to come -- a clear proof of His divinity.
     
  8. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    What do you mean by "qualifiers" -the greek "ge" = land, and in the context of "tribes" makes perfect and logical sense. You seem to be ignoring context to suit doctrine?? Scriptures qualify scriptures. Jesus is talking to His people -to say he wasn't [which you do when you say it applies to our age], means that the scriptures [and in particular the Apocalypse] were closed -because it's about our end of history not theirs. Yet the Apocalypse was NOT about consealing but revealing.

    davo
     
  9. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
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    Married
    GW,

    You can't compare Jesus' 2nd Coming with anything else. The 2nd Coming of Jesus will be unlike anything else since the beginnig of time.
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hi Sister Auntie, and God bless.

    Christ's coming was to be (and was) a coming like Yahweh's comings. Jesus promised he would come in the glory of the Father (Matt 16:27) and as a "Day of Yahweh." It doesn't get any plainer than this for us.

    In Luke 21:20-22, Jesus said the Day of the Lord's Vengeance was the AD66-70 event, which had also been foreseen in Isaiah 61:1-2 (verse 2, in particular). Jesus applied both of those Isaiah 61 verses to himself, and said Isa 61:1 was fulfilled (see Luke 4 as where Jesus stood preaching and declaring Isaiah 61:1 fulfilled in their very presence). Jesus preached that Isaiah 61:2 was to be fulfilled when the nation was destroyed (see Luke 21:20-22).

    The Lord of the Vineyard indeed came and Jesus was the Stone that did grind them to powder as He removed the Kingdom of God from them (Matthew 21:40-45).
     
  11. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    I'm not buying the notion that "every eye" really means, only the people that see Him. It does not say that, no matter how you slice and dice the scriptures. I'm not buying that "all the tribes of the earth" means not all the tribes of the earth, just the tribes of Israel. It does not say that, either. Jesus was talking to all, Jews and Gentiles alike.

    This is a clear cut case, where straight forward, and to the point scripture, is somehow meant to be multi-layered and complex. This can be done with any scripture, by anyone, to mean anything we want it to. And, you can claim that your preterist views have been taught since the time of Christ, just as Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and a host of other herretical groups claim that their teachings were taught since the time of Christ. If you don't believe me, set down with a Jehovah's Witness and ask for a scriptural basis of their beliefs. It doesn't add to a hill of beans, to most of us.

    Sorry, folks. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but your belief system not only does not line up with scripture, but it leaves an unsettling feeling in my gut. Perhaps a descerning of the Spirit.


    John
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,778
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    Hi John

    Just so I know you are being consistant in your interpratation, could you explain Isaiah 52:10 to me?


    Isaiah 52:10a
    "The Lord hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all nations"


    When did this ocour? Surely such a monumental, global event as Gods actual arm being seen by the eyes of every person in every nation would have been recorded in History, yes?

    If by chance you interprate the above as metaphore, could you show me where the Bible tells you to interprate "seen by the eyes of all nations" in polar opposite fashion to "every eye shall see"?

    Thanks, P70
     
  13. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
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    Amen, brother John. You just hit the nail right square on the head.
     
  14. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Or an unteachable heart :rolleyes: -why is it that you folk can never just simply disagree, without getting all emotive by including the likes of: heresay! JW's! Mormons! etc etc etc -you do it all the time, and usually when your faulty logic has you boxed into your own corner, so you come out with the same old diatribe of guilt by "supposed" association, or baseless accusations -it's a bit of a pathetic joke. If you disagree, great, say so, but without all the insecure trimmings :(

    davo
     
  15. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    77
    +1
    John,

    Do you know how long the pre-trib rapture of the church theory has been taught? Do you know its origins? Who first taught it? If you really want to get a sick feeling in your gut, go study these matters. I did, and I was appalled.

    By the way, the passage you quote out of Revelation that says every eye shall see Him. It also says "even they who pierced Him" shall see Him. How come you didn't underline that part? Are any of these folks still alive to see Him with their eyes, or am I missing something? They would be pretty old folks by now. I think I would have at least read about them in one of those crazy grocery store magazines or something.

    Ozark
     
  16. Well brother Bear just because you do not buy a biblical concept that is in the Bible does not make it any less the truth. In Isaiah there is also the very same biblical concept about the first coming of our Lord that states "all flesh" would SEE the first coming of the Lord togather. (Isaiah 40:1-5). Did all flesh see his first coming togather as stated in Isaiah 40?

    Not according to the words of Peter. That the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and golry at the revelation of Jesus Christ whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory (1 Peter 1:7-8).

    Seen Jesus is not alway done with the literal eye and God's people above all should know this simple truth. But the futurist traditional teaching of men have overlooked these clear biblical concepts :(

    Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.(Hebrews 12:2)


    The above verses and Revelation 1:7 was meant to show God's majesty, power, and presence were at work. Wither or not one believes these biblical concepts does not stop them from being God's truth. :clap: Thank God for that.
     
  17. Buy those alway crying out the word heresay shows everone one here where their are really coming from. They are indeed trying to stop God's people from look at these biblical concepts for themselfs. However God is on the job and no amount of name calling will stop He truth from getting out. This was true in Jesus' day and it remainds true today :clap: God will have His way.
     
  18. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Bummer! by there literal logic -oops we missed again. :(

    davo
     
  19. I like that one brother davo. According to their literal logic and understanding of thses thing they don't have everlasting life either. Thank you brother :clap:
     
  20. TC

    TC New Member

    58
    +0
    So, let me understasnd this; right now, Christ is reigning over the earth during the thousand year reign, the saints are reigning with Him, Satan is in the pit, there is one government and it is perfect? When did this happen, so I can get an idea when the thousand years will be up and Satan and his followers will be loosed one more time to be beat by Christ once and for all and cast into the lake of fire.

    Hold on, Bill Clinton was President, and the question of what is sex was brought to the attention to us all, including our children, because of his actions. I'm pretty sure that Christ is not reigning as prophesied.

    I also can read that the Great Restrainer (The Holy Spirit)will be lifted from the earth before the Great Tribulation begins. As a matter fact, the fact that the salt of the earth (the Christians) and the Holy Spirit leave is what enables Satan to try and reach for the golden ring, so to speak. Now, if the Holy Spirit left (which happens before Christ returns), then we do not have the Holy Spirit? I haven't heard that teaching before.
    In short, I can't stress how confused I am over this.
    Seems like a lot of you guys (and gals) have some extensive education. I'm just an ol' country boy from south Alabama and read the bible for myself. Of course, God says I have the Holy Spirit within me, guiding me because I pray that He does before I begin reading and meditation on the Word, but still, I take the Word as it is, with the aid of the Holy Spirit. So, could you please help me understand how it is that I am confused? How is it that Chrsit could have already returned for His bride, and the Christians still be here? Did we miss the marriage supper? I haven't heard anything about the Mount of Olives being split wide open, yet. And I know I never read about the Angels flying over the earth and with loud voices warning all those with hardened hearts to repent!
    Something is definitely wrong with the picture. If Christ has already returned, then a large portion of the Bible is a lie. If the Bible is a lie, then the God who it supposedly represents is too weak to protect His word. If that be the case, He is not omnipotent. If that is true, we are wasting our time because that would make God Himself a liar, and the whole concept will have been a scam.
    OK, now I have a headache from this. Gonna go get some aspirin. Holler at y'all later.
     
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