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Christological Question

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by trulytheone, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. trulytheone

    trulytheone Member

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    Could Christ sin by His human nature and by His human will? If not, is it because Christ is a Divine Uncreated Person and that only created persons could sin?

    Please support your answers with Ecumenical Councils and Church Fathers.​
     
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  2. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    It all depends on how you see the word "can".
     
  3. trulytheone

    trulytheone Member

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    What do you mean?
     
  4. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Something can be possible in a technical, mathematical, logical sense, but not practically or regarding the will.

    Something is truly impossible like for 2+2 to be 5, something is technically possible, but will never happen like for you to win one billion billion dollars in a lottery.

    So, which "can" do you mean?
     
  5. Peter J Barban

    Peter J Barban Well-Known Member

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    Satan tempted Jesus to sin several times. Certainly, Satan thought Jesus could sin.
     
  6. trulytheone

    trulytheone Member

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    In all senses of the word
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  7. SingularityOne

    SingularityOne Active Member Supporter

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    St. Sophronius of Jerusalem in the 6th Ecumenical Counsil answers your question.
     
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  8. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie

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    It depends on what we call sin. When we are in a state of holiness, the sin we are tempted with, which is the same as with Jesus, is to revert to depending on our 'flesh' or human way of looking at things instead of spiritual and instigated by the Holy Spirit. This will lead to sin if indulged in, but of course it would not get that far with Jesus. However He would be thwarting the plans of God.
     
  9. trulytheone

    trulytheone Member

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    What was his answer?
     
  10. SingularityOne

    SingularityOne Active Member Supporter

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    Christ did not have a gnomic will.

    His personal divine nature assumed impersonal human nature.

    The human will followed the divine will perfectly.

    Edit: So, no, He cannot sin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    no, Christ cannot sin. His human will is perfectly in sync with the Divine Will.

    St John of Damascus says His human will only willed what the Divine Will willed it to will.
     
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  12. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    and as far as Satan goes, he tempted Christ in that he laid temptations before Him, but not that Christ actually considered them.
     
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  13. KWCrazy

    KWCrazy Newbie

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    Were it not possible for Christ to sin Satan would not have tempted Him. Satan knew exactly who he was. Even in the end Christ had the opportunity to just say the word and legions of angels would have swooped down, destroyed the Romans and saved Him from the cross. Christ had the same humanity as we did. He also could talk directly to the Father, as we do through the Holy Spirit. He had knowledge of Heaven as we have only our faith. He maintained always that the Bible was the inspired word of God knowing that in the future even many who claim to follow Him would teach others that the Bible was untrue.
     
  14. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    not true. just because Satan tempted Christ, that doesn't mean that Christ had the possibility for sin. nowhere does Scripture say that. so while yes, Satan knew the Scriptures very well, pride can blind folks to a lot. Christ also doesn't maintain the Bible is the inspired Word of God, as He is the Word if God (plus, the NT wasn't written yet).

    we can even see this in normal humanity. if you are walking on the street and some prostitute tries to entice you for sex, saying no and not even considering it is not something unheard of. so if we can do it, even as sinners, the Son of God can certainly do it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  15. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Is this the general EO position? It's interesting to me because I had always assumed that the 6th Council meant that Christ had a will just like any other human being. If this is right, and it was distinguishing between natural and gnomic will, then it's not actually saying that. If Christ was never truly tempted, that's even more serious. I won't criticize EO belief in the EO forum, so I'm just trying to make sure I know what's really being said.
     
  16. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    Christ has a natural human will yes, but the human will in its natural (i.e. not sinful) state cannot be gnomic, since humans should only will the good.
     
  17. KWCrazy

    KWCrazy Newbie

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    Then why be tested?
    Jesus taught us how to defeat the Devil; by quoting Scripture. He knew it cold, as did Satan, and Satan could not argue with its truth.
    Jesus taught us than people could reject sin and choose to follow the Lord. He gave us his example. Granted, none of us can truly follow that example, but He can us a standard for a goal.


    I've heard this before. The best response I have read to this claim is found here.
    1. He knew the Scriptures thoroughly, even to words and verb tenses. He obviously had either memorized vast portions or knew it instinctively: John 7:15.2

    2. He believed every word of Scripture. All the prophecies concerning Himself were fulfilled,3 and He believed beforehand they would be.4

    3. He believed the Old Testament was historical fact. This is very clear, even though from the Creation (cf. Genesis 2:24 and Matthew 19:4, 5) onward, much of what He believed has long been under fire by critics, as being mere fiction. Some examples of historical facts:
    4. He believed the books were written by the men whose names they bear:
      • Moses wrote the Pentateuch (Torah): Matthew 19:7, 8; Mark 7:10, 12:26 (“Book of Moses”—the Torah); Luke 5:14; 16:29,31; 24:27, 44 (“Christ’s Canon”); John 1:17; 5:45, 46; 7:19; (“The Law [Torah] was given by Moses; Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.”)5
      • Isaiah wrote “both” Isaiah’s: Mark 7:6–13; John 12:37–41 [Ed. note: Liberals claim that Isaiah 40-66 was composed after the fall of Jerusalem by another writer they call “Deutero-Isaiah”. The only real “reason” for their claim is that a straightforward dating would mean that predictive prophecy was possible, and liberals have decreed a priori that knowledge of the future is impossible (like miracles in general). Thus these portions must have been written after the events. However, there is nothing in the text itself to hint of a different author. See The Unity of Isaiah. In fact, even the Dead Sea Isaiah Scroll was a seamless unity. But as Dr Livingston said, since Jesus affirmed the unity of Isaiah, the deutero-Isaiah theory is just not an option for anyone calling himself a follower of Christ.]
      • Jonah wrote Jonah: Matthew 12:39–41
      • Daniel wrote Daniel: Matthew 24:15
    5. He believed the Old Testament was spoken by God Himself, or written by the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, even though the pen was held by men: Matthew 19:4, 5; 22:31, 32, 43; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37.

    6. He believed Scripture was more powerful than His miracles: Luke 16:29, 31.

    7. He actually quoted it in overthrowing Satan! The O.T. Scriptures were the arbiter in every dispute: Matthew 4; Luke 16:29, 31.

    8. He quoted Scripture as the basis for his own teaching. His ethics were the same as what we find already written in Scripture: Matthew 7:12; 19:18, 19; 22:40; Mark 7:9, 13; 10:19; 12:24, 29–31; Luke 18:20.

    9. He warned against replacing it with something else, or adding or subtracting from it. The Jewish leaders in His day had added to it with their Oral Traditions: Matthew 5:17; 15:1–9; 22:29; (cf. Matthew 5:43, 44); Mark 7:1–12. (Destroying faith in the Bible as God’s Word will open the door today to a “new” Tradition.)

    10. He will judge all men in the last day, as Messiah and King, on the basis of His infallible Word committed to writing by fallible men, guided by the infallible Holy Spirit: Matthew 25:31; John 5:22, 27; 12:48; Romans 2:16.

    11. He made provision for the New Testament (B’rit Hadashah) by sending the Holy Spirit (the Ruach HaKodesh). We must note that He Himself never wrote one word of Scripture although He is the Word of God Himself (the living Torah in flesh and blood, see John, chapter 1). He committed the task of all writing of the Word of God to fallible men—guided by the infallible Holy Spirit. The apostles” words had the same authority as Christ’s: Matthew 10:14, 15; Luke 10:16; John 13:20; 14:22; 15:26, 27; 16:12–14.

    12. He not only was not jealous of the attention men paid to the Bible (denounced as “bibliolatry” by some), He reviled them for their ignorance of it: Matthew 22:29; Mark 12:24.

    13. Nor did Jesus worship Scripture. He honored it—even though written by men.
    The above leaves no room but to conclude that our Lord Jesus Christ considered the canon of Scripture as God’s Word, written by the hand of men.
     
  18. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    to your first point, yes. He is tested to show us how to overcome Satan. that still doesn't mean that He actually considered what the devil was offering.

    to your second point. none of that proves Jesus viewed Scripture as God's Word, especially since Scripture only calls Him, and not the text, God's Word.
     
  19. KWCrazy

    KWCrazy Newbie

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    Can you point to anything in the Scriptures Christ rejected?
    The Ten Commandments were actually written by God, not Moses.
     
  20. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    no, I never said that Christ rejected any part of the Scriptures. what I said is that Scripturally, the infallible Word of God is His Son, not the text.
     
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