Christmas Trees might be Evil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tulc]

well for one thing....christmas trees seem to get a lot more attention than jesus does on christmas....so what does that tell you?

... I don't really believe that, but OK. It tells me well...nothing really.
tulc(happy New Year!)

 

[staticblue]

I find it also interesting that several major Christian Holidays have some mystical, magical creatures or traditions tied to them.

I mean really do you think that lying to your kids about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy and than telling them that God came to earth as a man , died for our sins and was risen from the dead after 3 days, gives them confidence that what you are telling them is the truth?

My brother-in-law is now a hard core Pagan....because he said that his parents used to make a big deal out of these characters. They were also very strict disciplinarians...and disciplined him very harshly for lying. So when he found out at age 7 that they had been lying to him, he didn't care that it was a tradition, to him it was hipocrisy!!
He no longer believed a single thing that they tried to instill in him and views our belief in God as merely another tradition/lie!
The fact that the Christmas Tree has an admittedly Pagan origin does not help.
It simply proves out what he and other Pagans/Wiccans already believe. Christians don't truely believe thier own religion they simply follow the traditions of thier parents, never looking back to make sure that the traditions that they hand down to thier children remain rooted in true Christian values as set forth by God.

 

[Nathaniel P. Robbins]

We never put up an Xmas tree or envelop ourselves in pagan rituals. We try and keep Christmas to what it was intended for.

Amen!
Nathaniel P. Robbins

 

[OldShepherd]

I come upon no scripture that tells me to put up a Christmas Tree, or anything like it.
In fact, I found one that I believe may….may…..be describing this practice in Jeremiah 10:3-5 and in context condemning it.

Jeremiah
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Now I’ve been told that this is referring to graven images. However, no were in the Bible do I find a description of the action “decking” when referring to graven images.
All the instances of the action to “deck” refer to clothes, jewelry, and even ornaments!
All of which can be removed from the object that was “decked”.
In contrast, every instance of a “Graven Image” in the Bible indicates that they were covered in pure gold. Also the statement about a palm tree and it’s uprightness, seems to suggest that they are very tall and thin. This is not typical of graven images that are usually of calves, or other animals.
I don’t think that description describes these types of images well.
Than there is the description in Jeremiah that the images “speak not” This description with regard to a tree is puzzling because one would not expect a tree to speak. But it could have been included in order to ride them of fear, cause let’s fact it, if you didn’t know what a Christmas Tree was and you saw it all lit up, decked with silver and Gold, and people putting presents at it’s feet. You might just begin to wonder if this crazy thing had some power or something and made these people bring it gifts as a sacrifice.

With that said I have also found in my research that there may also be some truth to the popular belief that Jeremiah was referring to wooden statues or something of the like.

Hosea 13:2 - And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, and idols according to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves.

Actually Jeremiah chapter 10 has nothing to do with decorated trees. I am not aware of any culture at the time of the prophets, anywhere close to the people of Israel that worshipped any kind of decorated tree or even used decorated trees for any purpose.

[bible]Jeremiah 10:2-4[/bible]

Most people who try to use this verse as an argument against Christmas trees stop here.

[bible]Jeremiah 10:5[/bible]

But the very next verse, vs. 5, proves that this passage is NOT speaking about decorated trees but idols and images carved out of trees. A decorated tree is not expected to speak or move about but the pagan gods were said to move about, speak, and do good and evil to mankind, etc.

The Hebrew word translated "deck" in KJV Jer 10:4. The NIV translates it "adorn."

[SIZE=-1]H3302 [SIZE=+1]יפה[/SIZE] yâphâh
BDB Definition:
1) to be bright, be beautiful, be handsome, be fair
1a) (Qal) to be beautiful
1b) (Piel) to beautify
1c) (Pual) to be beautiful
1d) (Hithpael) to beautify oneself
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 890[/SIZE]​

[bible]jeremiah 10:6-7[/bible]

The true and living God contrasted with the dead idols of pagans, NOT decorated trees. Nobody worshipped trees.

[bible]jeremiah 10:8-9[/bible]

Here the so-called decoration is described, silver and gold is beaten into thin plates and fastened to the graven image. See the parallel verses in Isaiah. The rich could make an entire idol of gold and silver but the poor had to cover a wooden idol with thin plates of silver or gold.

Decorated trees did not wear clothing but pagan idols were dressed in the robes of royalty, blue and purple.

[bible]Isaiah 40:18-20[/bible]

[bible]jeremiah 10:10-11[/bible]

Again the true and living God contrasted with the pagan idols, "gods that have not made the heavens and the earth," not decorated trees.

[bible]jeremiah 10:12-13[/bible]

The true and living God, contrasted with the false graven and molten images of the pagans, NOT decorated trees..

[bible]jeremiah 10:14-15[/bible]

Note carefully here this passage is talking about graven images and molten images, that have no breath, he has already said they do not speak or move about, NOT decorated trees.

So now I want go to the Hebrew to see if I can figure out if these two descriptions of types of workers are the same in an effort to tie them together. I do not have the proper reference material to find out if these descriptions are identical.

Here are two Christian websites with many language resources.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.html

http://bible.crosswalk.com/

 

[OldShepherd]

I find it also interesting that several major Christian Holidays have some mystical, magical creatures or traditions tied to them.

Proof, evidence, documentation, something credible, and verifiable? I don't mean what someone wrote in a book that he sells on his own website or something posted on the internet.

The fact that the Christmas Tree has an admittedly Pagan origin does not help.

Proof, evidence, documentation, something credible, and verifiable?

 

[staticblue]

Well....I said some of the same things in my previous posts.

Most people who try to use this verse as an argument against Christmas trees stop here.

You'll notice that I didn't stop there! So I'm not sure what your point is.

Proof, evidence, documentation, something credible, and verifiable? I don't mean what someone wrote in a book that he sells on his own website or something posted on the internet.

Show me some proof that is verifiable that someone didn't write in a book that is not sold on their own webpage or that is not just posted on the internet. I mean...from the view point of this statement nothing is considered tangible or verifiable unless someone else declares them an expert and someone else agrees with them. The only resource that I believe to be true is the word of God, all others are just promoted the ways you are calling into question. It's not until the other "scholars" declare someone a "scholar" that what they have written is taken as proof.

Besides I was talking about my own observations regarding Christian traditions.
Where do you say they came from????????? Are they in the Bible?
Jesus didn't have a problem teaching them to hold the tradition of the bread and the wine, yet no where do we find that we are instructed to celebrate his birth or his resurrection in the manner that we do.

On Christmas (which is not found in the Bible) we have integrated a fictional character that does not appear to have anything to do with what we declare this day to represent. As well as a center piece to the celebration that I don't find anywhere in the Bible and do not know it's true origin.
On Easter (which is not found in the Bible) we have included another fictional character that does not have anything to do with what we have declared this day to represent.

I don't have any idea where these came from myself! That gives me more reason to question their inclusion in Christian celebrations. And that is all I am asking others to do.

How about providing proof that these customs are of Christian origin.
Do you have any?

Don't you find it strange and ignorant to carry on customs and traditions of which no one knows their true origin.
Rather than celebrate the traditions and customs of known origin that God set forth in the Bible, that we declare to be the infallible word of God.
That is the real point.

 

[yuzuyuzuken]

Let's not be so legalistic about this kind of thing.

I welcome anything that make the world play Christian music in town.
Some people are offended about Santa.
- but the principle of "gift" is their to remind us of God's perfect gift Jesus Christ
- Santa's red attire is there to remind us of the perfect blood of Jesus Christ
- and his white furs are there to remind us that our sin are washed away whiter than snow by Jesus blood
- The Christmas tree is there to remind us that our Saviour Jesus was hang on a tree

the cross where God's will and His will crossed

Please don't ruin the cheerful season... can you?

 

[staticblue]

where'd he get that stuff from?

 

[tulc]

On Christmas (which is not found in the Bible) we have integrated a fictional character that does not appear to have anything to do with what we declare this day to represent.

try here: http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/santa.htm

As well as a center piece to the celebration that I don't find anywhere in the Bible and do not know it's true origin.

and again here: http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/jer10.html
and here: http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/trees.html

How about providing proof that these customs are of Christian origin.
Do you have any?

hows that?
tulc(who receved no compensation for those links, not even left over Christmas cookies!)

 

[praying]

That reminds me... I must get our plastic one out of the atic. Please tell me a pastic one is OK I think it's roots are from China, maybe not they are all Commies!

That was funny.

 

[OldShepherd]

Show me some proof that is verifiable that someone didn't write in a book that is not sold on their own webpage or that is not just posted on the internet. I mean...from the view point of this statement nothing is considered tangible or verifiable unless someone else declares them an expert and someone else agrees with them.

I quoted from a world recognized standard reference work, Encyclopedia Britannica, which had you bothered to even read what I posted, referenced several historical writings of the early church.

In response I do not see any reasoned, rational discussion or refutation. Let me clarify. I am not the least bit interested in your opinion of what is or is not pagan. I am not interested in some dood on the internet or some flea market book giving me their unsupported opinion what is or is not pagan.

I am willing to listen to discussion of verifiable ancient documents and other evidence, e.g. wall paintings/carvings in ancient tombs, castles, forts, dwellings, etc. ostraca, scrolls, tablets, manuscripts, etc.

Do you have such evidence? This is at least the second time I have asked. My previous post made reference to such evidence. Evidence which is easily verifiable, not only online but, in many public and most university libraries.

The only resource that I believe to be true is the word of God, all others are just promoted the ways you are calling into question.

Then prove to me from the Bible that modern parctices sometimes associated with Christmas are pagan in origin?

It's not until the other "scholars" declare someone a "scholar" that what they have written is taken as proof.

See my answer above. Lets compare "your own observations" vs. early church fathers Ignatius and Polycarp, disciples of John, Irenaeus disciple of polycarp, Justin Martyr, etc.

Besides I was talking about my own observations regarding Christian traditions.

Your observations means absolutely nothing. If you are going to condemn others for so-called "pagan" practices then something more than your observations are needed. I remember a guy not too long ago who gave away free koolaid because he thought he was right and everyone else was wrong.

Where do you say they came from????????? Are they in the Bible?

Irrelevant! Centralized churches, with classrooms, PA systems, built in baptismals, A/C, etc., etc., etc. are not in the Bible either. I don't think Jesus had a Sunday School bus to pick up people on Sunday morning.

Jesus didn't have a problem teaching them to hold the tradition of the bread and the wine, yet no where do we find that we are instructed to celebrate his birth or his resurrection in the manner that we do.

See previous answer.

On Christmas (which is not found in the Bible) we have integrated a fictional character that does not appear to have anything to do with what we declare this day to represent. As well as a center piece to the celebration that I don't find anywhere in the Bible and do not know it's true origin.

I have never seen a fictional character integrated into any worship service dedicated to the birth of the savior. And I have never seen anything or anybody except Jesus as the centerpiece of CHRISTmas.

What I have seen where I worship is an "Angel Tree" in the foyer. On that tree are paper "Angels" each has the name, gender, and size of a child in a local orphanage. Each year I take two angels, one male, one female and buy an article of clothing and a toy for each one.

On Easter (which is not found in the Bible) we have included another fictional character that does not have anything to do with what we have declared this day to represent.

Again a broad generalization. Most people I know have taken to calling this day, "Resurrection Sunday," just because of this type of mud slinging. Resurrection Sunday service usually begins at dawn, I seem to remember reading in the Bible that someone resurrected at dawn. And we read from the Bible how the women and the disciples found the tomb empty, walking on the road to Emmaus, etc. And we do this because we CHOOSE to a as a way to worship JESUS!

I have never seen or heard of any fictional characters being associated with any "Resurrection Sunday" observance. Later if people want to go out have a picnic, etc. with eggs and candy, so what?

I don't have any idea where these came from myself! That gives me more reason to question their inclusion in Christian celebrations. And that is all I am asking others to do.

If you don't know where they came from and they are not part of any formal Christian observance and they do not concern you, why are you arguing so strenuously that they are pagan?

How about providing proof that these customs are of Christian origin.
Do you have any?

See my previous answer. I don't think Jesus, His disciples, Paul, etc. had computers either.

Don't you find it strange and ignorant to carry on customs and traditions of which no one knows their true origin.
Rather than celebrate the traditions and customs of known origin that God set forth in the Bible, that we declare to be the infallible word of God.
That is the real point.

That is NOT what I find ignorant. I think there is a difference in observing the feasts and festivals of pre-Christian Israel as a requirement, set down in the Torah, and celebrating the birth and resurrection of our Savior because we want to.

 

[fejao]

I think there is a lot more important things in life than worrying about whether Christmas trees are evil, come on people! Christians sometimes can be so superstitious! I've never heard of demon possession due to a Christmas tree. Christmas trees in themselves are not evil, I am sure your name will not be blotted out the book cause you have a Christmas tree. Also you put the Christmas tree up as another symbol that you are celebrating Christmas, meaning your heart is focusing on the birth of Jesus, or it should be. Jesus isn't worried about your Christmas tree, he wants your heart. The tree doesn't bother him! However if you are more concerned about a Christmas tree than the 100,000 recently killed, that would be a problem for him.

Fejao x

 

[L'Anatra]

I think that we have learned the ways of the heathens (Pagans)! Worse yet we have declared their ways to be God's ways! But we refuse to learn the ways of God! We have even let them change his name in our mouths! Jesus’ real name is "Yashua"! And believe it!!!! Satan would love for us to worship our savior under the wrong name! The true name of God is "Yaway" (don't know how to spell it). The name "God" came from Pagan's too!

Etymology of the Word "God"
The word God is a relatively new European invention, which was never used in any of the ancient Judaeo-Christian scripture manuscripts that were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek or Latin. According to the best efforts of linguists and researchers, the root of the present word God is the Sanskrit word hu which means to call upon, invoke, implore. Nonetheless, it is also interesting to note the similarity to the ancient Persian word for God which is Khoda.

John 14:13 - And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14 - If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Acts 3:6 - Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Christ is really Messias in Hebrew also!

God is not a relatively new word, nor did it come from Sanskrit, although it may have a cognate in that language. Certainly God was not used in Greek or Latin manuscripts, which is hardly surprising considering it is a Teutonic word, not a Greek or a Latin one. In the Greek, God is rendered as QeoV (Theos), while in the Latin, Deus. Both of these words also have pre-Judaeo-Christian histories and were rooted in polytheistic traditions. You may notice that our word "theist" comes from the Greek word mentioned above. Of course we would not find the word God in any Semitic writings because it is Indo-European in origin, cloaked in 6,000 years of history and pre-history. What's your point? What should we call him?

Yahweh is the proper spelling, by the way, but not necessarily the proper pronuciation. We will never truly know how the Hebrew letters YHWH (known as the tetragrammation) are to be pronounced. It has been Jewish tradition for over two thousand years that the name should not be uttered at all, and it is substituted in Jewish prayer by the word Adonai (which means "my lord"). The tetragrammaton is translated as Lord in the King James Bible.

 

[ravenscape]

Genesis 21:33

And [Abraham] planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

2 Kings
23:7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.
23:8 And he brought all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to Beersheba, and brake down the high places of the gates that were in the entering in of the gate of Joshua the governor of the city, which were on a man's left hand at the gate of the city.
~~~~ Groves appeared to fall in disfavor at some point between the time of Abraham and the time of King Josiah. But it appears that the trees of these groves were decorated in some way with woven hangings. I am no biblical scholar and have no idea of the significance of the groves to early Hebrews.

Another odd tidbit I ponder. Ethiopian Jews had/have sacred groves and decorate them with woven cloth ribbons. I've read that this among many other ancient and long abandoned Hebrew practices indicate they separated from the kingdoms of Judah and Israel long before the conquests by Babylon, etc.

I don't think the Christmas Tree sprang from these early Hebrew groves. Everything I've ever read connects them to German midwinter traditions.

But I just thought I'd throw these verses into the mix. I'm curious about the very few references to groves in the OT.

 

[Lonnie]

Ok, our family have just this year came to the simular conclusion that staticblue came to.

Christmas was a pagan holiday, you can find lost of info about that at http://jesus-messiah.com/html/christmas.html .

And Easter is actualy very pagan too.
I believe it was the catholics who attempted to make the pagan festibles, christion celebrations.

Now our family have started celebrating, several of the Jewish Holidays, and they are fun, and they are educational. (you learn alot about Jewish Holidays, traditions, beliefs, and more about the bible to, and what the Jewish holidays symobolize in the bible).

 

[tulc]

Christmas was a pagan holiday

And Easter is actualy very pagan too.

I think the operative word there is "was". They were pagan but aren't any more. Haven't been for quite some time. But it does sound fun having those other holidays!
tulc(Happy New Year! by the way)

 

[yuzuyuzuken]

Although, Christmas season is already over, in my country,
I could see that the glory of Jesus filled the country during the season.

So I cannot believe that Christmas is evil.

 

[PACKY]

the most imporatnat commandment is : " love the lord your god with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" this alone speaks volumes,,,, if it is a tree of light to help you embrace the lord and all he teaches so be it!! love him just the same

GOD bless and stay strong in the spirit!!!!

 

[FaithAlone]

Romans 14:4-13: "Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own Master he stands or falls. Indeed, He will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it...

 

[tsai001]

I am pretty sure that christmas trees are not evil and not pagan. This is because they have now become a symbol of christ's birth. I guess the intent of which you have for the tree determines if it is evil or not. You don't buy christmas trees to worship satan do you?