Christmas Feud

[P3nguin1]

and rolling your eyes at someone is the same.

THAT IS SO RUDE!!!!

If you disagree, learn to say it nicely.

She is concerned about her daughter seeing an appearance of evil. I was offering a possible compromise. I never said that living together without having sex is a sin, I was saying its a concern to her and her daughter and its worth pursuing a compromise. Said nicely, and politely, it could offer a "let's agree to disagree" solution that preseves the relationship while addressing the situation at hand.

I apologize for being rude. It was late, I was tired, and it was uncalled for.

I personally feel the "I don't want my 4 year old daughter to see it" reason is a cop-out (and I am a parent as well). Our children are going to see evil in the world trying to shield them from it completely is impossible. It is not our job to make sure our children are never exposed to a situation that is sinful. It is our job to make sure they know the difference between sin and rightousness and are equiped to make the right choice on their own.

Furthermore, exposing your child to "an appearnce of evil" is a misuse of that peice of scripture: (I think I mentioned this before in this thread).

In 1 Thess. 5:22 we are told "Abstain from all appearance of evil."

Many people take this to mean we should not do anything that gives the appearance of evil to others, but this is not at all what Paul was talking about.

Paul was writing to a church who was denying the gift of prophetic utterences. This church had some bad experiences ( a couple false prophets) and were not allowing prophetic utterances at all. Paul was telling them not to do this, and if you look at that one verse in context it is clear:

Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. (1 Thess. 5:19-22)

To paraphrase Paul he was saying "Do not deny this Gift of the Holy Spirit. Allow people to prophesy. Then test what they say. Keep the good prophecies and throw away any prophecy that appears evil or false"

Here is an excerpt from my favorite essay on the subject:

"So why have Christians misused this passage? I think it is their failure to get the context. I know it was mine! Yet once the context is read we can see what Paul was saying and it isn’t that we avoid “questionable” behavior.
The problem with saying that Christians should avoid “questionable behavior” is that we have all kinds of opinions as to what is or is not questionable behavior. Obviously we are not talking about SIN or wrongs as described and given by God. We most definitely are to avoid disobeying God. But when it comes down to matters of Christian freedom and liberty then this misapplication of 1 Thess. 5:22 must be challenged. I might not like what you do but if it isn’t sin I should keep my mouth shut and allow you to enjoy your freedom in Christ. It is amusing to me, now that I’ve been a believer for over 30 years, how many things I’ve seen be “evil” to one generation of believers are not to the next. I can remember when guitars (even acoustic) were said to have the appearance of evil. Drums were not allowed in church, then they became allowed in Sunday night services and now they are found in the morning service of every growing church! Were these things really evil? Not to God! The sad thing is that when today’s young Christians, who do things once taboo by the older generation, still find “the appearance of evil” in things that are pure and of no consequence to God.

So you might disagree with your fellow Christian who likes to dance, smoke cigars, has tattoos, enjoy a glass of wine or a beer for dinner, have piercings, or even drive a nice car (and “yes” I’ve heard this verse quoted in regards to the type of car one drives!) but you’ll not find God saying in this verse to avoid such liberties because they have the appearance of evil. The verse isn’t saying that!"

The short version of this is that we are to avoid evil, not that which might appear to someone else as evil.

 

[SirKenin]

Honestly, would you say the same thing if he were gay and living with his lover?

I would say the same thing if he was having bald eagles for supper and using a US flag as a tablecloth.

Although we do have several issues here and they all, within themselves, have merit, I think one must focus on the key issue(s). One key issue is the age of that child. A four year old will not be able to comprehend and thus be vulnerable to that kind of influence.

 

[msjones21]

Ahhh you danced around the issue, Dr. I doubt very seriously that a Christian who felt strongly about homosexuality would risk exposing their child (as young as he or she may be) to something they disapprove of. Even a child as young as four asks questions such as "why does so and so live with another man?" or "Is that Uncle so and so's wife? No? How come they live together?" Even young children are smart enough to pick up on things like that. I have only one surviving grandfather and I will not go see him because he is always drinking and making crass remarks. I find it appalling. I see him when he comes to my mother's house and he's always welcome in my home because on my turf he is not allowed to drink. Subsequently I don't see him very often. I honestly do not feel guilty when people lay the 'ol "that's family and even if you don't approve and blah blah blah". Yes it is family and sometimes family is all you have;however, when someone in your family is doing something you know you don't approve of should you just sit by idelly?

 

[SirKenin]

Ahhh you danced around the issue, Dr. I doubt very seriously that a Christian who felt strongly about homosexuality would risk exposing their child (as young as he or she may be) to something they disapprove of. Even a child as young as four asks questions such as "why does so and so live with another man?" or "Is that Uncle so and so's wife? No? How come they live together?" Even young children are smart enough to pick up on things like that.

I have two children. 9 and 6. I can tell you that at 4 years old they don't go into someone's residence and ask why they are living together.

Let's use your example of homosexuals. The four year old child has NO idea that homosexuality is immoral. The child has no concept of sexual sin. That is YOUR bias. You are allowing the presence of your child to cloud the issue and using your child as a scapegoat, claiming protection of the child's interests to excuse your actions.

Therefore I did not skirt around the issue, rather exposed the real issues and brought them forward, and kept the secondary issues where they belong. If you want to place your child in solitary confinement from the day they are born, be my guest. However, I assure you that it is an exercise in futility and only allows you to avoid doing your job as a parent.

It's always easy to blame your poor choices on this or that... However I think the more appropriate thing to do would be to stop passing the buck and start taking responsibility for your own actions. This is the real issue.

 

[LN]

Sometimes, things are less about being right and more about keeping relationships in tact.

 

[SGaulke26]

In case anyone wants to know, I realized that going to dinner was not saying that I supported or agreed with their choices (which was the real issue because of the wedding - see earlier post), but we didn't go because by that time we had already made other plans. We did sincerely apologize, however, and the family totally understands. To make matters worse, they announced at Christmas dinner that they had gotten married a few days earlier. I regret that I decided not to go, and I appreciate all the responses that I got.

As far as my four-year-old daughter being a 'cop-out', as someone put it - that couldn't be farther from the truth. She notices everything and she is very smart for her age. She has asked me some philosophical questions that blow my mind. At the same time, she is not old enough to have a discussion about morals and ethics. For example, she will not sing 'oh my God' on a Christian CD I have because she knows that we are not supposed to use God's name in vain. She can't understand that it depends on the context. I'm not really sure what the 'right' thing to do in a situation like this would be, but that is why I was concerned about bringing her.

 

[Warrior Poet]

See ....

I hate to say I told you so ......but..........

Glad everything worked for the best. Hope you had a great christmas.

Warrior Poet

 

[SirKenin]

At the same time, she is not old enough to have a discussion about morals and ethics. For example, she will not sing 'oh my God' on a Christian CD I have because she knows that we are not supposed to use God's name in vain. She can't understand that it depends on the context.

Seeing as how this thread has run it's course, I can feel free to comment on this.

I somehow highly doubt that the child asked about taking the Lord's name in vain. That was YOUR doing. You imposed your values on her before the proper time, that of comprehension. That of understanding context and implications. That of a personal knowledge of what sin is and the consequences of same. You yourself even said so.

In no way is your little anecdote demonstrative of your daughters capability to perceive or comprehend living in sin. She would not have been influenced by a visit to your family this Christmas. There is also no doubt in my mind that you did not tell your family the real reason you didn't show up this Christmas, and why other plans were made.

I maintain that your daughter is a crutch.

Further to this, there is nothing in the Bible that dictates that a union must consist of a marriage certificate and/or a ceremony. That's just more of your radical fundamentalist dogma.

I feel sorry for that child. You might as well lock her in a box. You strike me as the same type of fundamentalist fanatic that my parents are, that only served to push me away rather than draw me closer to the truth.

Please, take a look at your life and see what you are doing. You may not realize it now, but the damage that you are doing and may continue to do may not be reversible.

 

[msjones21]

I feel sorry for that child. You might as well lock her in a box. You strike me as the same type of fundamentalist fanatic that my parents are, that only served to push me away rather than draw me closer to the truth.

Dr. I say this with the utmost Christian love, but I do not feel you should use the pain that your parents caused as a way to make bitter pot-shots at someone else's parenting skills. The girl is 4, not 14. There are some things you should shield your children from as long as possible. You can't protect them forever, but why "feed them to the wolves" when they are still so tender and innocent?

SG, I'm sorry that you feel bad about not being able to attend, but I am exceedingly pleased (as I'm sure you and your husband are) that they went ahead and got married. I pray that now your feelings of disapproval can be taken away and you can start fresh in Christ.

 

[SirKenin]

Dr. I say this with the utmost Christian love, but I do not feel you should use the pain that your parents caused as a way to make bitter pot-shots at someone else's parenting skills. The girl is 4, not 14. There are some things you should shield your children from as long as possible. You can't protect them forever, but why "feed them to the wolves" when they are still so tender and innocent?

Feed them to the wolves???? Ummm. Give me a break, mmmmkay? It was Christmas dinner.

Second, I'm not bitter here. I'm relating frank, personal experience. Take it or leave it, but don't say I didn't tell you so. I've been there, I've walked this path. I am the product of this sum.

For pete's sake, the poor child is so confused she doesn't even know when to sing along to her song. That's just wrong on so many levels. Where does it go from here? Me thinkst someone needs to swing a little more to reality from the far right and perhaps get their nose down out of the air before an airplane chops it off.

 

[msjones21]

Dr....it is blatantly obvious your upbringing has caused some bitterness. It's not your place to use this thread to personally attack someone's parenting skills when that wasn't the initial question. Who are you to tell someone they are a poor parent just because you think your parents were slack in that area?

Now, this girl is confused about the song lyrics because even small children know certain words and phrases are tabboo. They don't need neurotic parents to tell them that. I mean, I remember a time I was explaining the plan of salvation with a group of second graders and when I said "hell" as in reference to the eternal place where people who aren't saved go, almost every child in the room gasped and said "Ms. Jennifer used a naughty word!". I highly doubt all of those kid's parents have locked them in their rooms and made them nutcases.

 

[P3nguin1]

Dr....it is blatantly obvious your upbringing has caused some bitterness. It's not your place to use this thread to personally attack someone's parenting skills when that wasn't the initial question. Who are you to tell someone they are a poor parent just because you think your parents were slack in that area?.

I don't agree with much of what he said, and I agree with msjones here that attacking the OP's parenting skills is out of line.

That being said, I still think that using a 4 year old daughter as a reason not to go is weak at best. I have a 5 year old daughter and a son who turns 4 soon. IF they had enough understanding of the situation to ask "why do they live together if they aren't married?" I would tell them " They have separate bedrooms, they dont live together like a mommy and daddy do." End of discussion (which happens to be the truth in the situation of the OP's in-laws).

This assumes the question comes up at all, which I HIGHLY doubt is likely. If the question were to come out of my 5 year old I would be shocked. She would rather know what is being served for dessert than the marital status of the hosts.

Now, this girl is confused about the song lyrics because even small children know certain words and phrases are tabboo. They don't need neurotic parents to tell them that.

I dissagree here. The OP told her daughter that saying "Oh my God" is wrong and now the child wont sing along with a praise song when the words "My God" come up.

It seems to me that the OP tried to teach a 4 year old not to use the Lords name in vain before she can really comprehend what that means.

The child is confused and it is based on what mommy (with great intentions mind you) taught her. I would assume that mommy is trying to teac her daughter that sometimes it is ok to say it and some times it isn't. This is a EXTEMELY difficult concept for a 4 year old. I know my 4 year old recognizes that he "can" do some things and he "can't" do somethings. Trying to teach him that it is ok sometimes, not others, it depends on the context is far beyond his ability. At least when it comes to language skills.

I mean, I remember a time I was explaining the plan of salvation with a group of second graders and when I said "hell" as in reference to the eternal place where people who aren't saved go, almost every child in the room gasped and said "Ms. Jennifer used a naughty word!". I highly doubt all of those kid's parents have locked them in their rooms and made them nutcases.

I also have a second grader (we have 7 kids. From 2 years old to 16) and there is a HUGE difference between a 4 year old and a second grader.

 

[SirKenin]

Dr....it is blatantly obvious your upbringing has caused some bitterness. It's not your place to use this thread to personally attack someone's parenting skills when that wasn't the initial question. Who are you to tell someone they are a poor parent just because you think your parents were slack in that area?

Thanks Sigmund. Can I go home now?

/me sings to himself "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together."

Oh.. .and.. As I'm running out of your office, Freud, I shant neglect to highlight one minor technicality. The OP has been sufficiently answered. The horse was beaten into glue by the various parties and closure has been brought by the OP'er. I dare suggest that would leave the floor open.

Peace.