Christmas Feud

[SGaulke26]

My brother-in-law and his fiancée, who are both Christians, bought a house together and moved in. They were supposed to get married before moving in, but they postponed the wedding until March. My husband and I have expressed our concern that their marriage will not be blessed because they are not following God’s plan for their lives.

They have decided to have Christmas dinner at their new house. My husband and I made the decision not to attend because we do not want to support their co-habitation and ‘play house’, as I like to put it. This has caused a problem within the family – they feel like we are passing judgment. This situation is very surreal to our family because we have always considered these people to be very strong Christians.

My brother-in-law and his fiancée have said that they sleep in separate rooms and will not be intimate until marriage. My question is: is there a verse in the Bible that might be good to give them? Can you give me any advice? Are we being unreasonable not attending their new home for Christmas?

Thanks, I would really appreciate feedback!

 

[msjones21]

Wow, that's a tough situation and I applaud yours and your husband's decision to stand firm in your convictions. While there are no Bible verses that directly address living together one must remember that A) We are not to have the appearance of evil and B) We are to flee sexual immorality. Alot of people say "we can live together and not be intimate" but they are so very very wrong. First of all, what sort of image does that convey to the lost? "Oh gee, Bob and Sue Christian are always preaching about how sinful sex is and now they're shacking up!?" Even if they never did have sex most people are going to assume that they are. We are also to make sure our actions would not cause another brother or sister in Christ to stumble. What sort of message does that send to a new babe in Christ who was contemplating cohabitation?

Also, the Bible says to flee sexual immorality. You don't accomplish that by living under the same roof! I also question their self-control. Your brother-in-law could have bought the house and his fiance could have continued to live at home. I'm not quite sure what the point to living together is if you aren't married. Why have they postponed the wedding?

Anyway, I pray that God will speak to their hearts through you and your husband and they will be convicted by the Holy Spirit and get back on the right track. Marriage is a blessing. Living with your spouse is a privilege that comes from making the sacrifice of entering into the covenant of marriage. Cohabitation is a mockery of that covenant and God won't honor that.

God bless you and your husband and Merry Christmas.

 

[Warrior Poet]

My brother-in-law and his fiancée, who are both Christians, bought a house together and moved in. They were supposed to get married before moving in, but they postponed the wedding until March. My husband and I have expressed our concern that their marriage will not be blessed because they are not following God’s plan for their lives.

Well in all reality when you say Gods plan for their lives are you meaning the plan that God gave you and yours ...or did God tell you his plan for them? I am not advoating the fact that are living together....but blood is thicker then water...you have expressed your concerns to them about it....they opted not to listen, but your not going to dinner looks more like a resentment thing then anything else. Sounds to me like you are making the first move to create a family "rivilary"

They have decided to have Christmas dinner at their new house. My husband and I made the decision not to attend because we do not want to support their co-habitation and ‘play house’, as I like to put it. This has caused a problem within the family – they feel like we are passing judgment. This situation is very surreal to our family because we have always considered these people to be very strong Christians.

They may have caused a problem in the family your little boycott is gonna create a catastrophe, again i can see your point, but if the rest of the family is going...let them "play house".....again you have voiced your side, you did your part......swallow your pride now, this is for God to deal with under his laws......not yours..... and this wedding may still be blessed its a very bold statement to say otherwise.

My brother-in-law and his fiancée have said that they sleep in separate rooms and will not be intimate until marriage.

Im willing to bet they know all the verses that you can spit at them, if they are living up to what they say and staying in seperate rooms encourage that, keep them focused on the purity....it should be apparent by now that they are going to live this way.....pray their hearts be convicted before something happens. Attending dinner isnt saying what they are doing is ok....its being their for the family...keep in mind what this is all about...Jesus' birthday, and you get to spend it with your family His sons and daughters, even the ones that go againist His will and are sinners.

Warrior Poet

 

[E-beth]

Their marriage will be blessed, if indeed God put them together, but what they are doing is not Godly. I think it is improbable that they are sleeping in separate rooms in separate beds. And even if they are, they are playing with fire.

Just remember that for every verse you quote at them, they will probably have another in return. Most Christians who are living a sinful lifestyle justify their sin like that. But, if you need proof from the Bible that not going to dinner is right, consider 1 Cor 5:11. "But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat."

 

[P3nguin1]

I have to disagree with some of the thoughts expressed here. I think that it is possible to live under the same roof and not be sexually immoral, my fiance` and I are doing it now (the situation is a bit different, we were living together and had a daughter together before we committed our lives to Christ) until we can be married in March.

We were told not to attend the church we went to unless I moved out or we were married. The Pastor told us the same thing "Avoid all appearance of evil". I have news for you, that verse is used completely out of context 99% of the time.

Interesting excerpt from an article I read:


In the Thessalonians passage quotes, Paul is talking about prophetic utterances in the previous verses (19-21). “Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.” What is to be tested? The content (the message) of every prophetic utterance. What is good is to be held on to; what is evil is to be rejected. The passage is not saying never do something which looks like sin to another person. Jesus Christ frequently offended the leaders of the religious community.http://www.experiencegrace.com/Appearance_of_Evil.html#_edn1

The article can be found at:
http://www.experiencegrace.com/Appearance_of_Evil.html

When Paul wrote "abstain from all appearances of evil" he was refering to prophecy. he was clearly not saying "do not do things that others might think looks like evil".

It is evil that we should abstain from, not the appearance of it.

In addition you claim you are not going because you do not want to support thair "playing house". What you are really doing is not supporting them because you don't agree with what they are doing.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that condemns two people living together before marriage. If they are not fornicating, they are not committing a sin. For you to judge them is completely wrong. If they are the "strong Christians" you believe them to be then why can you not take them at their word that they are remainaing pure?

What you ARE doing is calling them liars based on your perception, not on fact.

Their marriage will be blessed, if indeed God put them together, but what they are doing is not Godly. I think it is improbable that they are sleeping in separate rooms in separate beds. And even if they are, they are playing with fire.

Maybe you don't agree but that does not make it "not Godly". There are many circumstances that might require this arrangement and for you to assume they are sinning based on what is essentially "gossip" ("I think it is improbable that they are sleeping in separate rooms in separate beds" is gossip unless you know otherwise) is wrong.

Alot of people say "we can live together and not be intimate" but they are so very very wrong.

On what do you base this statement? Are you qualified to speak for everyone? Just because you might not be able to do it does not mean everyone can't. I know from personal experience that it can be done.

Cohabitation is a mockery of that covenant and God won't honor that.

Only if sexual immorlaity is involved and there is no good reason to believe there is. There might be a very good reason to postpone the wedding, unavoidable even.


I am sorry if I seem agitated but this is a personal issue for me. I have no choice but to live with my fiance` and we cant get married until March 1st. We are living in accordance to Gods Word by abstaining until we are married. At our church we got the same arrogant, holier than thou, judgemental treatment that I see in much of this thread.

Show me where it says living under the same roof is a sin. Do they have separate bedrooms? Have you caught them being sexually immoral? Then it is not your place to protest their choice which is not sinful. You may not a gree with it but it is up to God to judge.

I find it disturbing that you would call them liars (which you are indirectly doing) based on ZERO personal knowlege and at the same time accuse them of being unGodly.


If they say they are staying pure then you need to encourage them, not turn your back on them.

I can tell you that it IS difficult to live togeter and abstain. Even moreso I think for us because we WERE living a sinful lifestyle before and we have been "together" countless times.

Because they have put themself in a tough situation is all the more reason to support them MORE. Until you can point out an actual sin you should love and support them, not judge and abandon them.

 

[seebs]

It seems to me that the question of how blessed they are is up to God, but that it would be petty of you to withhold friendship over it.

Will hurting them make them act differently? I don't think so. Will it make them think that you are right about this teaching, or will it make them think that this teaching makes former friends petty?

 

[msjones21]

No offense, P3nguin1, but you have done what every other Christian does when justifying sin. I would encourage you to read this article.

http://www.leaderu.com/critical/cohabitation-myths.html

It may help.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Good grief you're kidding right?
I don't know if they're the ones who need the bible verse.

What possessed you to treat them like this.

They should send you a can of Spam for Christmas.

 

[SGaulke26]

Just to clear something up:
Not attending their (my brother-in-law and wife-to-be) house for Christmas is not about hurting them. I have a four year old daughter and I don't want her to think that this type of situation is normal and accepted. We talk to them frequently, have a great relationship with them, and have invited them to our house on Christmas Eve. That is one reason why I didn't expect any backlash regarding our decision. I realized that many things in life are symbolic after participating in a wedding where the bride and groom were unequally yoked. After the wedding, I felt very guilty for supporting something I knew was wrong. In the same way, I feel as if I would be condoning my brother-in-law and his fiancee's lifestyle if I attended their house on Christmas. I really do appreciate all the advice. It has really helped!

 

[P3nguin1]

No offense, P3nguin1, but you have done what every other Christian does when justifying sin. I would encourage you to read this article.

http://www.leaderu.com/critical/cohabitation-myths.html

It may help.

Just curious, what sin am I justifying?

That entire website assumes the cohabitating couple is having sex. As I said in my above post we are abstaining till marriage.


Is living together in abstainance a sin? Please show me where in the bible it says this.

In His Name,
jeremey

 

[P3nguin1]

Just to clear something up:
Not attending their (my brother-in-law and wife-to-be) house for Christmas is not about hurting them. I have a four year old daughter and I don't want her to think that this type of situation is normal and accepted. We talk to them frequently, have a great relationship with them, and have invited them to our house on Christmas Eve. That is one reason why I didn't expect any backlash regarding our decision. I realized that many things in life are symbolic after participating in a wedding where the bride and groom were unequally yoked. After the wedding, I felt very guilty for supporting something I knew was wrong. In the same way, I feel as if I would be condoning my brother-in-law and his fiancee's lifestyle if I attended their house on Christmas. I really do appreciate all the advice. It has really helped!

If there is no sin it is not your place to condone or condemn.

 

[SGaulke26]

Mr Cheese:

Am I really being unreasonable? I know Jesus hung out with everyone including the down and out, but that was always to lead them in the right direction. I don't want to use Christmas dinner as a platform for that. Is it so wrong that this situation makes our family uncomfortable? Should we go just to appease the family? I am really confused - I thought I was doing the right thing.

 

[Warrior Poet]

Well the right thing is a relative term especially in this case.....you made a few very bold statements that sounded more like a personal judgement then anything else...I personnaly think its a weak argument saying your child is gonna see your "auntie" living this ungodly life and think its ok....sounds more like you got really good advice but did it really matter? from what you are responding I am saying no.

Good advice usually goes againist your own advice.

Warrior Poet

 

[msjones21]

Okay I will ask you this. Hypothetically, P3nguin1, if one day your daughter came to you and said "guess what. Me and my boyfriend are moving in together oh! but don't worry, we aren't going to be having sex" could you honestly support her decision 100%? Are you completely comfortable with your living arrangement? If you honestly feel that you cohabitating with your fiance is edifying to Christ then I shall not say anything more; however, surely there is some speck of shame, guilt, embarassment, conviction, etc. that you feel. Maybe somewhere in the deep recesses of your mind you know you wouldn't be proud to stand up in front of your church and say "hey guess what. Me and my fiance live together!" Whether you're having sex or not is inconsequential. The majority of couples who live together before marriage end up divorced, even Christian couples. The Bible is clear. FLEE sexual immorality. By living under the same roof you're just begging for satan to get a foothold. In reality, even if you were living "in sin" before and you have a child together there is absolutely no excuse for not obeying God and either getting married or living in separate homes until you are married. Cohabitation, for me, is not an option. Sadly 33% of believers justify it in one way or another.

SGaulke, I personally do not see anything wrong with your decision. If your convictions tell you not to condone their immoral living arrangements by allowing them to entertain you then by all means stick to your guns; however, if it's more of a way of trying to guilt them into not living in sin any more then this may be the wrong approach. You need to do what you feel is best to protect your child.

 

[P3nguin1]

In reality, even if you were living "in sin" before and you have a child together there is absolutely no excuse for not obeying God and either getting married or living in separate homes until you are married. Cohabitation, for me, is not an option. Sadly 33% of believers justify it in one way or another.

Normally I would take this to PM's because it is getting off topic. I will respond to this part in this thread because I beleive it applies to the OP.


My fiance has 2 children who call me "daddy", they are 5 and 4. I am the only father they have ever known. This is in addition to our 2 year old daughter.

I am very involved in their lives and they rely on me on a daily basis. My fiance` and I decided that it was in their best interests that I not move out until the wedding because it would be impossible to explain to them and cause confusion and strife in their lives.

It is great that cohabitation is not an option for you, and I agree that our situation is not ideal. We were not being obedient to God, which is what got us into this situation. Just because it is not an option for you does not mean that it is wrong for everyone.

The only reason I go into this much detail is to demonstrate that sometimes we are in non-ideal situations and are forced to make the best of them.

I 100% agree with you that God wants us to refrain from sexual immorality until we are married.

It seems like "people" say that we should not live under the same roof until then. Your feelings may be what is right for you, but they are not scriptural (still waiting to see the "shall not live under the same roof" verse) and should not be used as a weapon to tell others that they are disobeyong God.

The Bible is fully sufficent for our instruction and as far as I see it sexual imorality is a sin, living under the same roof isn't.

To parallel this to another situation:

the Bible instructs us not to be a drunkard and not to give in to drunkedness (is that the right word?) Does this mean it is a sin to have a glass of wine? No, but some Christians will not touch alcohol at all. While that is great for them, it does not give them the right to call a glass of wine a sin.

Sexual immorality is a sin but there are some instances where living under the same roof before marriage is a viable alternative (I once had a female roomate after high school, she had her own room, was that a sin?). The fact that you are not comfortable with it does not make it a sin.

God tells us what is a sin, and He is pretty specific.

 

[msjones21]

Well, I think we could go around and around about the Bible not 100%, clear-cut, specifically saying living together is a sin, but then again the Bible never says 100% clear-cut that abortion is wrong either. There are many issues that Christians will never agree on being "immoral" because the Bible doesn't say it directly. Given your previous living conditions and if you can say with a clear conscious that you live together then who am I to judge? If you truly can live together without falling prey to sexual immorality then I applaud you. I apologize if my post came across as harsh and judgemental. I certainly did not mean to convey a self-righteous message.

 

[P3nguin1]

Well, I think we could go around and around about the Bible not 100%, clear-cut, specifically saying living together is a sin, but then again the Bible never says 100% clear-cut that abortion is wrong either. There are many issues that Christians will never agree on being "immoral" because the Bible doesn't say it directly. Given your previous living conditions and if you can say with a clear conscious that you live together then who am I to judge? If you truly can live together without falling prey to sexual immorality then I applaud you. I apologize if my post came across as harsh and judgemental. I certainly did not mean to convey a self-righteous message.

No apology needed. I sent you a pm and we can continue the discussion there. And for the sake of anyone else reading this I will admit that it is not easy, and I wouldn't choose to do it over again this same way but the end is in sight and when we are married it will be great to know how much we overcame to be right with God on our wedding night!

In His Name
jeremey

 

[P3nguin2]

I find it interesting that some of you are judging someone when you only know a handful of details. Who here has the RIGHT to judge these people.

Matthew 7 1-6
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

 

[Warrior Poet]

I find it interesting that some of you are judging someone when you only know a handful of details. Who here has the RIGHT to judge these people.

Just curios to who "some of you" are??
If I was judging i would like to know...cause I did not mean to do that at all.

Warrior Poet

 

[LadyBird]

You can still go over to their house for Christmas dinner but not support and/or agree with their decisions.