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SBG

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Vance brought up an interesting question that I would like to expand on.

If a person truly believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but also believes the following things, are they saved?

-they reject Genesis and all it says
-they reject the whole Old Testament
-they reject the Virgin Birth
-they reject Jesus raising from the dead
-they reject Jesus' second coming
-they reject Jesus being the only way to the Father
-they worship other gods, but believe Jesus is a higher God

There are actually people I know who believe and do these things. They will profess with passion, that they are saved because they believe Jesus is the Son of God, and they tell you that they have a different interpretation than yours and yours is no more correct than theirs.

Do you correct them, or fall in line with this 'you can interpret anyway you choose and be right, still?'

Are they saved?

Furthermore, I know a few people who will tell me the same professing faith, but yet they do not follow Jesus Christ. They call Him their Savior and believe He is the True Son of God, but they do not pick up their cross and follow Him. They believe the Bible supports being saved by just this one belief that Jesus is the Son of God and they need to do nothing more.

Are they saved?
 

Vance

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Well, first I would ask whether they not only believe He is the Son of God, but also have accepted Him as their savior and Lord of their life.

If so, then all of those I would disagree with violently, but I could not sit in judgment on their beliefs, other than the last two and the ressurection. These I believe that these would violate absolutely essential beliefs for salvation. I also believe that a belief in the resurrection of God is essential since that is the "saving" that has been done when we accept Jesus as our Savior.

Now, further, I have never met a Christian who rejects everything Genesis says, much less the whole OT. In particular, no Christian on this forum has ever said anything like that that I have seen.

Isn't this an apologetics or soteriology question? I know it has nothing to do with origins.
 
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Maccie

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"If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9

Not much question there of what you must believe, then!

And of course, Alarum is quite right. We have no business declaring who is saved and who isn't. That is for God, and God only, to decide.

Which is not to say that you can't discuss with them why they believe, or don't believe, what they say. You can point out the relevant bits of the Bible (for the things that are important) but if you go in with all guns blazing with the attitude that they must be "corrected" you won't get anywhere.
 
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If Not For Grace

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One MAJOR difference in Christianity and other religions is the "raised from the dead" deal. How can you believe in Jesus as a God and leave so much out?
 
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Smidlee

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SBG said:
Vance brought up an interesting question that I would like to expand on.

If a person truly believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but also believes the following things, are they saved?

-they reject Genesis and all it says
-they reject the whole Old Testament
-they reject the Virgin Birth
-they reject Jesus raising from the dead
-they reject Jesus' second coming
-they reject Jesus being the only way to the Father
-they worship other gods, but believe Jesus is a higher God

There are actually people I know who believe and do these things. They will profess with passion, that they are saved because they believe Jesus is the Son of God, and they tell you that they have a different interpretation than yours and yours is no more correct than theirs.
this sounds something like Jesus Christ Superstar to me.
Do you correct them, or fall in line with this 'you can interpret anyway you choose and be right, still?'
oh , i understand now. you are talking about Burger King salvation , have it your way. As far as correct them it's all depends on the person.
Furthermore, I know a few people who will tell me the same professing faith, but yet they do not follow Jesus Christ. They call Him their Savior and believe He is the True Son of God, but they do not pick up their cross and follow Him. They believe the Bible supports being saved by just this one belief that Jesus is the Son of God and they need to do nothing more.

Are they saved?
Well since they don't believe in Genesis you couldn't help them with this yet it reveals two people who worshiped the true God. First Cain who seems to have worship God first and put a lot of effect and sweet in his worship to God. Then Abel who took a lamb and offer it to God. Abel offering was very bloody and required no effert of Abel part but just to watch the sheep. Cain work very hard with his offering since he had to work the ground (which was cursed) and plant. but Cain offering was reject ; oh well I guess God doesn't accept Burger King religion. As this was the first murder between the two worshipers ; Those who worship God in spirit and truth in obedence and those who worship God in Burger King way. ( most of the time you don't have to judge the Cain worshipers since they will despise true worshipers. you will know them by their fruit)
 
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1denomination

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Mat 7:13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
i_blank9.gif

Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. Mat 7:26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Maccie said:
"If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9

Not much question there of what you must believe, then!

And of course, Alarum is quite right. We have no business declaring who is saved and who isn't. That is for God, and God only, to decide.

.
It sounds a little more complicated than that.
 
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Vance

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BTW, just to make sure SBG or anyone else is not misinterpreting something I have said many times: I definitely do NOT think that people can interpret the Bible anyway they want and still be correct, whether in Genesis or anywhere else. It only happened one way, historically, so either the earth is old, or it is young, God used evolution or He didn't. Adam and Eve were literal persons, and the first hominids on the planet, or they were not. We can not all be right on these things. Some are right and some are wrong, or we are all wrong.

But, I definitely DO believe we can all be correct on the true message of Genesis, regardless of any of the facts above, since I believe that the true message of that text is primarily theological and not scientific or strict historical narrative. It is also historical, since it tells us about important historical events (God making the universe and all that is in it, God making Man in His image, God wanting to commune with Mankind, Mankind failing to be obedient, succumbing to temptation and selfishness, etc). That these essential historical events happened are also something that we agree upon, regardless of whether we read it as strict historical narrative or that these literal events were told in figurative language. The fact that we disagree on the exact details of how and when these events took place is incredibly minor when compared with the fact that they happened. So, again, we agree on what is important.

Now, this is not the same for all Scripture, of course. For some Scripture, it makes a huge difference whether you read it as literal narrative history or figuratively, since this choice actually effects essential doctrinal issues. I think the resurrection story is meant to be read historically, since all the indications for such a reading are there in the text itself (literary analysis), in the historical analysis and in the theology (none of which require a literal/historical reading in the Genesis accounts). So, to say that if you read Genesis as non-literal, you must read the Gospels non-literally, or even that it would lead to such a reading is patently ridiculous. Just because someone reads some of the Psalms figuratively, or even reads Song of Solomon as symbolic for Christ and the Church, or if Calvin reads Job as a figurative story rather than literal history, that does not at all mean they must abandon a literal reading of the Gospels.

My call for unity on this issue is not at all a call to relativism, although that makes for a nice strawman. It is an area in which we should agree to disagree, since we DO agree on the essentials, and should not present it in a way that is a stumbling block. We can still think the other is wrong, but since we all agree it is not a salvation issue, why should we be making it a dogmatic doctrine?
 
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Delta One

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Hello SBG,

If a person truly believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but also believes the following things, are they saved?

-they reject Genesis and all it says

Yes that person will be saved. That said, however, the person has no basis for the purpose of Jesus' life. When one rejects Genesis, then one destroys the very foundations that the Gospel relies on to make any sense.

-they reject the whole Old Testament

Once again, yes they will be saved; same negative effect as above. They basically destroy the foundations that the Gospel is set on. Also, how then, if one rejects Genesis and the Old Testament, can one claim that the Bible is the infallible Word of God if there are parts that you do not even believe or take it as it was meant to be written to make sure that it conforms to the pseudo-science of evolutionism? Each time the theory changes, the TE's account of how the Bible should be read changes -- doesn't sound like the infallible Word of God to me if mere humans can change it at will to make it conform to a fallible man made theory.

-they reject the Virgin Birth

This seriously destroys the Gospel message and in my opinion destroys the very reason why Jesus came down. Let me explain, the Bible says that we sin in the likeness of the first man, Adam. King David says that he was a sinner from the point of conception. Since every person in Adam's line (who has a father) is a sinner, if Jesus really did have an earthly father, then he too would be a sinner and could not:

a. be the Son of God as He would be sinful and God hates sin.
b. be the perfect sinless sacrifice that was needed to pay the price for our sin.

It is for these reasons why the Holy Spirit made Mary pregnant.

-they reject Jesus raising from the dead

Then they have no basis for the next life and if they still believe that Jesus is dead in the grave then no, they would not go into heaven. Jesus told us that no one gets to the Father except through Him; but if He is dead, then what chance have we?

-they reject Jesus' second coming

Once again, what basis for the next life do they have if Jesus does not come back to take us into heaven? They may be saved from sin - but what purpose does this serve if Jesus does not come back to raise the "dead in Christ" and take them to heaven? You'll still be rotting in your grave until the day that the sun expands to a red giant and overtakes earth. I don't believe that we go straight into heaven when we die. I believe we stay here on Earth until the day of His return when the dead in Christ will rise and when Jesus will create a new heaven and new earth to be like it was in the beginning, a perfect sinless state -- a restoration of all things. So no, they would not be saved because they would still be in their graves rotting away.

TE's however are at heads with this idea - a restoration implies that there's something dramatically wrong with this world for it to be restored to what it once was. But according to the TE's, God created using death and evolution. In other words, death has always been here. This world would be just like what it was in the beginning -- nothing much has changed -- why then, does God need to restore it back to how it was if it is no different? The literalist view says that this world is massively different to how God originally made it thanks to Adam's fall. God placed a curse upon His creation and death entered to world through Adam's rebellion (or sin). After the restortation, things will be back to a perfect state like that described in Genesis. The restoration invloves the destruction of the curse that God placed on His creation.

-they reject Jesus being the only way to the Father

No they would not be saved from sin because they didn't trust who Jesus was and what He did and the things that He said: "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me." One must believe that Jesus died on the cross to save them from their sins so that they could enter heaven. If there was another way for people to get to heaven, why then, did God send His one and only Son? God obviously would have done that then watch His loved Son go through the torture and cruel death that He was given. That is what makes this position illogical and irrational.


-they worship other gods, but believe Jesus is a higher God

I would argue no because Jesus said that He is the only truth. The other gods therefore, must be false because they can't be ture without making Jesus to be a liar (so why believe in them?). Once again, do these other god's have different holy books, different ways of getting into heaven? If one does not believe the who, what, why, and sayings of Jesus, then I would argue that they would not be saved.

They will profess with passion, that they are saved because they believe Jesus is the Son of God, and they tell you that they have a different interpretation than yours and yours is no more correct than theirs.

Oooh, the Son of God. Wow! Who cares that He's the Son of God? What does that do and mean for us? The reason that us Christians are saved is not because Jesus was the Son of God! Only fools would argue that!! It was action of Jesus paying the debt for our sins by living a perfect and sinless life and dying on the cross where His blood took our sins away that is the reason why we are saved. If one does not believe this, then they are damned to eternal suffering.

Do you correct them, or fall in line with this 'you can interpret anyway you choose and be right, still?'

Does this ring a bell to the TE's? You must point out the inconsistencies with their beliefs and what the Bible says -- this is what the Biblical literalists have been trying to do to the TEs for years.

Furthermore, I know a few people who will tell me the same professing faith, but yet they do not follow Jesus Christ. They call Him their Savior and believe He is the True Son of God, but they do not pick up their cross and follow Him. They believe the Bible supports being saved by just this one belief that Jesus is the Son of God and they need to do nothing more.

As I said above, it is not the fact that Jesus is the Son of God that saves us. It was the sacrifice that He made that causes us to be saved if we follow Him. Our love for Him should show in our lives by picking up our crosses and following Him in His example. All the other religions in the world say that good tasks are required to please God and enter heaven - this is where Christianity is different. God doesn't care about how many good things or bad things that we've done to get us into heaven. Only if we believe who Jesus was, what He did for us and the teachings that He taught.

If people do not believe that Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead three days later they will not be saved from eternal damnation unless God says otherwise in special circumstances, e.g. babies dying very young who do not get the chance to accept Jesus.

Delta One.

Btw, sorry if I sound a little angry now. After following that many Sunday drivers on Saturday on the road for hours :mad: and getting lost, and a number of other events that didn't go my way, you will understand why I am slightly ticked... :sigh: I need a good night sleep.
 
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Maccie

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maccie said:
"If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9

Not much question there of what you must believe, then!

And of course, Alarum is quite right. We have no business declaring who is saved and who isn't. That is for God, and God only, to decide.

1denomination said:
It sounds a little more complicated than that.

Really?? You don't believe the Bible then?? Or perhaps you have arguments with Paul?
 
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1denomination

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Maccie said:
Really?? You don't believe the Bible then?? Or perhaps you have arguments with Paul?
Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus........

Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?






Rom 10:9
......and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


Jam 2:14What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jam 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Jam 2:16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



Jam 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?



Do you care to argue with Christ? or James? I belive all of these scripture work together, but none should be taken without the outher.
God bless.
 
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Maccie

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1denomination said:
Do you care to argue with Christ? or James? I belive all of these scripture work together, but none should be taken without the outher.

I wasn't arguing with Jesus or James. James is talking about the demonstration of our faith. The OP was asking about faith, what someone believes or doesn't believe.

Jesus is saying that some will not be saved, because of their hypocrisy (in other words, they said they believed, but didn't) and it is Jesus and only Jesus that can judge our hearts.

No conflict there. Unless you are determined to make things complicated.
 
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Faith In God

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Maccie said:
I wasn't arguing with Jesus or James. James is talking about the demonstration of our faith. The OP was asking about faith, what someone believes or doesn't believe.

Jesus is saying that some will not be saved, because of their hypocrisy (in other words, they said they believed, but didn't) and it is Jesus and only Jesus that can judge our hearts.
Jesus also taught us that From the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. Your heart will reflect on your actions. Are you saying that Paul made an enormous error when he judged people?! :eek:
Paul made several personal comments on people he didn't think were saved!! And he went further than just judging actions. He outright said that God will judge them for what they did. I think we should listen to the reasoning of a seasoned evangelist that was called directly by Christ.
 
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Faith In God

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Maccie said:
"If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9

Not much question there of what you must believe, then!

And of course, Alarum is quite right. We have no business declaring who is saved and who isn't. That is for God, and God only, to decide.
And Paul, apparently. And Peter, as well. The most highlighted evangelists in the Bible...
 
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Faith In God

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SBG said:
Vance brought up an interesting question that I would like to expand on.

If a person truly believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but also believes the following things, are they saved?


There are actually people I know who believe and do these things. They will profess with passion, that they are saved because they believe Jesus is the Son of God, and they tell you that they have a different interpretation than yours and yours is no more correct than theirs.

Do you correct them, or fall in line with this 'you can interpret anyway you choose and be right, still?'

Are they saved?

Furthermore, I know a few people who will tell me the same professing faith, but yet they do not follow Jesus Christ. They call Him their Savior and believe He is the True Son of God, but they do not pick up their cross and follow Him. They believe the Bible supports being saved by just this one belief that Jesus is the Son of God and they need to do nothing more.

Are they saved?
I switched it around for ease of posting.
-they reject Genesis and all it says
What? Even Christ alluded to it. They don't follow Christ, then.
-they reject the whole Old Testament
He also alluded to it. As did the early evangelists as the biggest basis for their claims (Paul reasoned with the Scriptures, with Moses and the Prophets).
-they reject the Virgin Birth
... Well, if you ignore the former points, then I can't connect this, but considering the others... I think I'd believe the testimony of an angel.
-they reject Jesus raising from the dead
That's the whole point of Christianity.
-they reject Jesus' second coming
That is the whole hope of Christianity.
-they reject Jesus being the only way to the Father
They are outright denying Christ's own words.
-they worship other gods, but believe Jesus is a higher God
Christ cited the First Commandment as still being the First Commandment.

This belief is nothing but someone who likes the title of a Christian but wants nothing to do with what it entails (save death insurance).

This person does not accept Christ as Lord, otherwise, he would follow His example, which these ideas do not.
 
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Maccie

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butxifxnot said:
He outright said that God will judge them for what they did.

Exactly. God judges.

Jesus also taught us that From the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks

Exactly. As James also said, our actions (and words) demonstrate our beliefs.

Are you saying that Paul made an enormous error when he judged people?! :eek:

Not at all. If you think you are called, as Paul was, and if you think you have the qualifications that Paul had, then go ahead and judge people as to whether they will be saved or not. And remember that Paul spent 14 years alone in what is now Syria, thinking things through, before he went along as an evangelist.

Me, I'll leave their salvation to God. Though, of course, that doesn't stop me knowing, and possibly telling them, that what they are doing, or believing, is wrong. I'm just not going to usurp God's place and tell them they are not saved.

But the OP was talking about beliefs, not actions. And as I said before, it really is simple.

"If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved"
Romans 10:9


So, no being a "closet Christian", proclaim that Jesus is your Lord, and believe in the resurrection.

Leave the rest to God.



 
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Lovesherald

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SBG said:
Vance brought up an interesting question that I would like to expand on.

If a person truly believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but also believes the following things, are they saved?

-they reject Genesis and all it says
-they reject the whole Old Testament
-they reject the Virgin Birth
-they reject Jesus raising from the dead
-they reject Jesus' second coming
-they reject Jesus being the only way to the Father
-they worship other gods, but believe Jesus is a higher God

There are actually people I know who believe and do these things. They will profess with passion, that they are saved because they believe Jesus is the Son of God, and they tell you that they have a different interpretation than yours and yours is no more correct than theirs.

Do you correct them, or fall in line with this 'you can interpret anyway you choose and be right, still?'

Are they saved?

Furthermore, I know a few people who will tell me the same professing faith, but yet they do not follow Jesus Christ. They call Him their Savior and believe He is the True Son of God, but they do not pick up their cross and follow Him. They believe the Bible supports being saved by just this one belief that Jesus is the Son of God and they need to do nothing more.

Are they saved?

If they profess to be Christians still after all that is in the list, then I would say they are what I call "shallow Christians" the people who believe Jesus is the Son of God and then live their lives as if it was a one time deal--that they needn't live their lives according to Christ.

If they don't believe in the ressurection, how do they expect Jesus to be their salvation? Believing Jesus is the son of God isn't all, we are supposed to believe that he is THE Savior, meaning He saves, and an unressurected Jesus can't save.

Talk to your friends about actually reading the Bible, because they are missing out on so much.

Jesus will say to those who play church, "Depart from me for I never knew you," meaning they never developed a relationship with Him.

I never used to read the Bible, let alone the Old Testament. I thought the OT didn't pertain to Christians now a days, but I see such a difference between the OT and the NT, which points out the difference Jesus has made for Christians. Now instead of having "nothing good that dwells in us" we have the Holy Spirit (once baptized) and we become the righteousness of God in Jesus.

So, OT is good to show us how much we are saved from in this life as well as the next.

I'll be praying for your friends because I know I regret every moment that I wasted as a "shallow Christian".
 
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