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Christians - Why the (by default) hate?

mulimulix

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I was thinking this when talking to my (only) Christian friend a while ago:

If Christians believe I and about 80% of the world are going to spend eternity in Hell, then why aren't they doing more to stop that! I mean, if I truly thought that my friends was going to go to hell, I would do everything I could to stop them from doing so, but my friend hasn't even attempted to do that with me nor has anyone on this forum. I don't understand. What possible reason could there be to justify letting people go to hell?
 

drich0150

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I was thinking this when talking to my (only) Christian friend a while ago:

If Christians believe I and about 80% of the world are going to spend eternity in Hell, then why aren't they doing more to stop that! I mean, if I truly thought that my friends was going to go to hell, I would do everything I could to stop them from doing so, but my friend hasn't even attempted to do that with me nor has anyone on this forum. I don't understand. What possible reason could there be to justify letting people go to hell?

Because they want to go.

Their is nothing harder than letting a loved one choose a path that you do not agree with, but in the end it is their choice.
 
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Walter Kovacs

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The Christians job is to present the Gospel message of Christ. That's all I can do. The choice of whether or not to follow it or get hung up on a million things about it is theirs. I present the message, the consequences and the choices as lovingly as I can, but at the end of the day, it falls to them to make the choice and follow through.


I mean, if I truly thought that my friends was going to go to hell, I would do everything I could to stop them from doing so, but my friend hasn't even attempted to do that with me nor has anyone on this forum.

Maybe he knows that you're waiting for evidence he gives you to change your mind, in which case he's likely realized that there's no point in arguing evidence, since evidence is pretty worthless.

On the contrary, I think Christians do most everything they can to get people to believe as they do. But, seeing as how you're an atheist, I'd imagine you reject all that, which means that it's a matter of not wanting to believe the message, and consequently, not a matter of "WHY AREN'T THEY DOING MORE," but a matter of, "Hm, am I missing something here? Perhaps they're on to something."
 
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mulimulix

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Because they want to go.

Their is nothing harder than letting a loved one choose a path that you do not agree with, but in the end it is their choice.

I was afraid of this answer. Do you actually think I want to go to hell and that I purposely disobey god?
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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I was afraid of this answer. Do you actually think I want to go to hell and that I purposely disobey god?

Do you believe in hell? If you don't believe in it then its not that you want to go there, its that you've chosen the path that rejects its very existence.

No one wants to go to hell, but most people who don't believe in the Christian message also tend not to believe in hell.
 
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drich0150

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I was afraid of this answer. Do you actually think I want to go to hell and that I purposely disobey god?

Do you honestly want to Humble yourself to God? Do you honestly want to spend eternity with God? what if that means giving up your personal take on sin and righteousness?

Your inability to not "sin" is not the reason you goto Hell.
 
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LWB

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It isn't a situation like the Holocaust, where people are being rounded up and sent off to the gas chambers.

It is more like the experience I have had with my mother and her smoking. Ever since I was a kid I hated the smell and sight of her smoking. When I was older and learnt about lung cancer, I doubled my efforts to get her to quit. But the more I nagged her, the less she heard me. Now she has emphysema and a cough you would not believe. My only hope now is that these terrible side effects will inspire her to quit. Not that quitting now would do any good, but I could at least respect her again.

We can only warn people about the dangers of hell, and if they reject this warning, hope that the side effects of sin inspire them to change.
 
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Faulty

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I was afraid of this answer. Do you actually think I want to go to hell and that I purposely disobey god?

No and no. But like you said, we do disobey God, and that by our fallen nature.

These are sins we will be held accountable for unless there is some way for God to no longer hold us accountable for them.

We have two choices, either keep the law of God perfectly from our birth, or find someone who has and is willing to take our place.

Scripture tells us that Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin for us so that we might be righteous before God who puts their faith in Him alone for salvation.

You know you're a sinner, now repent and be forgiven. "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." Romans 4:7-8
 
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mulimulix

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Do you believe in hell? If you don't believe in it then its not that you want to go there, its that you've chosen the path that rejects its very existence.

No one wants to go to hell, but most people who don't believe in the Christian message also tend not to believe in hell.

Exactly, but some Christians I have encountered cannot comprehend that there is someone who actually does not believe in their beliefs, but rather chooses to disobey them purposely. I am not an atheist because I "hate" god or "hate" Christianity, this is impossible as I do not believe in them. Do these Christians hate Zues and Ra? Going by their logic, yes they do.

Do you honestly want to Humble yourself to God? Do you honestly want to spend eternity with God? what if that means giving up your personal take on sin and righteousness?

Your inability to not "sin" is not the reason you goto Hell.

No, I don't want to do those things. I have no desire to change my (lack of) beliefs as I am very happy with my life at the moment. However, if sufficient evidence were presented to me, then I would HAVE TO humble myself to god if I don't want to be tortured for eternity (A justice system which doesn't deserve the term 'Justice' in it as it is the opposite).

It isn't a situation like the Holocaust, where people are being rounded up and sent off to the gas chambers.

It is more like the experience I have had with my mother and her smoking. Ever since I was a kid I hated the smell and sight of her smoking. When I was older and learnt about lung cancer, I doubled my efforts to get her to quit. But the more I nagged her, the less she heard me. Now she has emphysema and a cough you would not believe. My only hope now is that these terrible side effects will inspire her to quit. Not that quitting now would do any good, but I could at least respect her again.

We can only warn people about the dangers of hell, and if they reject this warning, hope that the side effects of sin inspire them to change.

It is a good analogy, but this situation is slightly different to a smoker. We are talking about eternal punishment, not a few years suffering with cancer (despite how bad that can be). I agree with you that there is only so much you can do with someone like a smoker; if they refuse to listen to you, there's not much else you can do, but if it something infinitely worse than getting cancer, like going to hell, you should do EVERYTHING you can to stop that from happening.
 
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Sketcher

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Not much we can do for people who don't want to listen. And for those who take the message out to even the people who don't want to listen, what do they get in return? Mockery and harassment, and in numerous other countries, much worse than that.

Let's put it another way - would you be more or less likely to become a Christian if we were all evangelizing like those street preachers do?
 
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rjc34

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I present the message, the consequences and the choices as lovingly as I can, but at the end of the day, it falls to them to make the choice and follow through.

The problem is everyone else can present a pretty equal message (ie believe/repent or burn) with the same amount of evidence.

evidence is pretty worthless.

Only those who think believing without evidence is some sort of twisted virtue. I don't believe any claims made without anything to back them up.

But, seeing as how you're an atheist, I'd imagine you reject all that, which means that it's a matter of not wanting to believe the message, and consequently, not a matter of "WHY AREN'T THEY DOING MORE," but a matter of, "Hm, am I missing something here? Perhaps they're on to something."

A little bit arrogant on that last bit, but I'll keep it polite. We don't 'choose' not to believe the message, we simply recognize that the position has failed to meet its burden of proof.

As an example: The Emperor's New Clothes provides a great moral message to its readers, but provides no basis to claim that there really was an emperor who embarrassed himself by proudly wearing nothing in front of his village.
 
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rjc34

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Let's put it another way - would you be more or less likely to become a Christian if we were all evangelizing like those street preachers do?

Instead of turning up the volume of the message you preach, the focus should be turned on finding evidence to support the message you preach.

There's a reason we don't have scientists evangelizing on street corners ;)
 
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LWB

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It is a good analogy, but this situation is slightly different to a smoker. We are talking about eternal punishment, not a few years suffering with cancer (despite how bad that can be). I agree with you that there is only so much you can do with someone like a smoker; if they refuse to listen to you, there's not much else you can do, but if it something infinitely worse than getting cancer, like going to hell, you should do EVERYTHING you can to stop that from happening.

Okay, so instead of smoking, a better analogy would be the ring from the Lord of the Rings novels and films. I hope you are familiar with them so you know what I'm saying.

In the story Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo become addicted to the power of a magic ring. The ring is a fitting symbol for the thing our race, and the fallen angels have become addicted to: self.

The feeling of being an individual against or for others, depending upon how they respond back to you, instead of recognising that the self is actually an illusion and that we are all connected, and the proper response towards others is unconditonal love, compassion and affection.

So in the Lord of the Rings, Frodo must destroy the ring lest Sauron get it. If Sauron gets his ring back, it is like all of Middle Earth would succumb to a terrible cancer and die. But Frodo in his heart doesn't really want to destroy the ring. He wants to keep it all for himself. Gandalf and Elrond could easily take the ring from Frodo, but it would ruin him in the process, and then they'd be the ones tempted to keep the ring. All they can do is encourage Frodo and hope that things work out.

Jesus came into the world to teach us that like Frodo, we have a great act to accomplish, otherwise we shall be in the most dire of circumstances. Instead of a ring though, the thing we must surrender is our very self.

Hell is the clinging onto the self, which if left unchecked would be an eternal spiral into unending hurt. A selfish man can do a lot of damage in a lifetime, but an immortal man can do infinite damage.

It is like holding onto your breath: the longer you hold on, the worse it feels. We have to learn to exhale. To give back, and share, instead of wanting to hold what we have forever. The thing we have to breath out is our life. But in a mysterious way, by giving up that life, it comes back to us. By clinging to that life, it dies.

So when it comes to trying to save someone from Hell, the way that person is to be saved is through the surrender of their self. If the person is selfish, they're going to be as obliging as Gollum would be to give up the ring. Even noble Frodo couldn't do it in the end. None of us can do it, that is why Jesus did it for us.

So trying to save people from Hell is a very delicate matter, which is why Christians don't go crazy. Like Gandalf and Elrond, they do what they can, but in the end only the individual can renounce their self.
 
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drich0150

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No, I don't want to do those things. I have no desire to change my (lack of) beliefs as I am very happy with my life at the moment. However, if sufficient evidence were presented to me, then I would HAVE TO humble myself to god if I don't want to be tortured for eternity (A justice system which doesn't deserve the term 'Justice' in it as it is the opposite).


I think I've asked you this before but incase not..

What if for some reason the description of Heaven and Hell were somehow confused in our past? Heaven was actually a fiery pit but God lived there, and Hell was what we know to be paradise, but it was completely devoid of God. Would you still want to goto Heaven? (the Fiery pit and burn with God forever?) Would it be fair if God dragged Why or How is it fair that God drag you into His presents now?

Heaven is much much more than a gated community with gold lined streets and a mansion for everyone. I would even say that Heaven and Hell have absolutely nothing to do with the things those places contain. What makes Heaven Heaven is the presents of God, and what Makes Hell Hell is the absents of God. When we "burn" we do so not physically with fire, but spiritually in the torment of being separated from God and the rest of creation.

By your confession, even if you were allowed into heaven, it would be hell for you because you would indeed burn with resentment being made to bow and worship God. The same thing happened to Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels. They burned so hotly they risked complete separation from God rather than being in his presents, and made to worship. Why do you think you would be any different if your personal righteousness was left unchecked.

If you do not want to be with God then "Hell, the Void or The pit" is the only place you can be away from Him.
 
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rjc34

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If you do not want to be with God then "Hell, the Void or The pit" is the only place you can be away from Him.

The claim is moot because no evidence or flawless philosophical argument has been put forward to support the belief that such an afterlife even exists.
 
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drich0150

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The claim is moot because no evidence or flawless philosophical argument has been put forward to support the belief that such an afterlife even exists.

then why are you here?

If you bring a valid point and everything I said can be chocked up to simple belief, then what is the purpose of trying to counter a belief of another? Is this in of itself not a "moot" exercise? If it is then why is it OK for you to practice a "moot" argument, and it a sin against your beliefs for me to do the same?
 
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Walter Kovacs

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Only those who think believing without evidence is some sort of twisted virtue. I don't believe any claims made without anything to back them up.

I've come to the conclusion recently that arguing evidence is literally the most worthless thing you can do regarding just about anything.

All that is built on the false assumption that Christianity by default has a burden of proof or evidence.

"The evidence must be investigated and you can prove anything with evidence."
- Steven Turner
 
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bling

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I was thinking this when talking to my (only) Christian friend a while ago:

If Christians believe I and about 80% of the world are going to spend eternity in Hell, then why aren't they doing more to stop that! I mean, if I truly thought that my friends was going to go to hell, I would do everything I could to stop them from doing so, but my friend hasn't even attempted to do that with me nor has anyone on this forum. I don't understand. What possible reason could there be to justify letting people go to hell?
I am glad you have one Christ like (Christian) friend.

Part of the problem is this friend and all of us cannot “make you” a believer. All we can do is be beside you and hopefully you will see Jesus (if we are truly Christ like) living through us in our Love (Godly type Love= selfless, sacrificial, serving, deep concern, unconditional, thought out, gracious and humbling).

If you have seen this Love then you have met Christ, but this Love may not be something you desire to receive or have for yourself at this time and you might have shown this. That does not mean your friend walks away, since there is still time as long as you are alive and if you live long enough you will experiences tragedies and need comforting Love. (If you really believed in a hell there would be a real “need to know”.)

One of the things that happen as you go through life and hurt others, these transgressions builds in your conscience and becomes a burden dragging you down. The only way to receive true relieve from this burden is to receive forgiveness from God and they thus become part of your witness of what God has done in your life (hopefully your Christian friend has shared what Christ has done for him and it is similar to where you are so you can feel Christ might do the same for you).

We are not eternal beings, but receive eternal life along Godly type Love when we accept God’s forgiveness. Those that have not accepted God’s forgiveness are not eternal beings so they do not burn forever. The Bible teaches degrees of punishment, so some will be burned up immediately. It is not so much you want to go to hell, it is you do not want to go to the Christian heaven (maybe just a visit). The reason I say that is because those that go to hell have repeatedly refused God’s Love and would not be happy in the “Love feast” of heaven.

(Briefly) Undisputable evidence of God or Heaven or hell would mean there is no need for “faith” (trust in these). Without “faith” there is no way to complete your earthly objective.
 
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rjc34

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All that is built on the false assumption that Christianity by default has a burden of proof or evidence.

I'm curious as to how you've come to the conclusion that this is false. By definition any positive claim has a burden of proof. Please elaborate.

"The evidence must be investigated and you can prove anything with evidence."
- Steven Turner

This quote is from a poem called Creed, which is a pretty loony rendition of what he thinks us atheists believe.

Evidence leads us to an understanding of reality. It's when we put it together with facts, experiments, hypotheses and logical inferences do we get science.
 
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