Christians who scoff at paranormal

[thecolorsblend]

I have noticed many Christians scoff at paranormal/magic/spirits/UFOs/etc. In fact a casual observer might mistakenly assume they are atheists when reading their skeptical and joking responses. ... But then these same people become extremely serious and solemn when discussing paranormal claims in the Bible such as the resurrection of Lazarus.

It seems to me that standards should be applied uniformly. We can't have one standard for the religion we inherited and another standard for everything else.

You offer an interesting critique of the Christian faith.

I don't think that a belief in/skepticism of UFO's is a religious viewpoint. Correct me if I'm wrong but the point I think you're trying to make is that as an atheist, you find the truth claims made by Christianity (a religion you presumably do not believe in) to be no more and no less credible than UFO sightings (a phenomenon which, I gather, you presumably also do not believe in). And so, on that basis, if Christians are prepared to accept miraculous claims written in Sacred Scripture they logically should be equally disposed to accept claims of UFO sightings/alien abductions and the like. Is that what you mean to say? Not trying to put words in your mouth so correct me if I misunderstood anything.

 

[Romans 8]

With the technology today, if the enemy did not have control over mass media, the truth might be more obvious. But alien abductions are a masquerade to hide the reality of demons and the truth of Christianity. The media has for decades, been hinting at the "government coverup" of UFOs. But this is done in order to deceive the masses into believing in this conspiracy.

There are "abductees" who have reported that calling out to Jesus has terminated the abduction experience, and that further attempts by these entities to abduct was thwarted by calling out the name Jesus.

I personally, doubt that we've had any visitation from other planets, but instead have been given this idea throughout generations of media and TV programming. Aliens are the perfect cover for demons. I believed in their lies for decades, but it's just lies and more lies.

 

[awitch]

Aliens are the perfect cover for demons.

Or maybe demons are the perfect cover for aliens.

 

[cloudyday2]

You offer an interesting critique of the Christian faith.

I don't think that a belief in/skepticism of UFO's is a religious viewpoint. Correct me if I'm wrong but the point I think you're trying to make is that as an atheist, you find the truth claims made by Christianity (a religion you presumably do not believe in) to be no more and no less credible than UFO sightings (a phenomenon which, I gather, you presumably also do not believe in). And so, on that basis, if Christians are prepared to accept miraculous claims written in Sacred Scripture they logically should be equally disposed to accept claims of UFO sightings/alien abductions and the like. Is that what you mean to say? Not trying to put words in your mouth so correct me if I misunderstood anything.

You are close, but I have actually had a few possible paranormal experiences (a UFO, some poltergeist activity, Christian-themed experiences, precognition, synchronicities.). A skeptical person would say that there must be something wrong with me neurologically or psychologically that explains these experiences without resorting to supernatural possibilities, but I go back and forth on that explanation.

 

[thecolorsblend]

You are close, but I have actually had a few possible paranormal experiences (a UFO, some poltergeist activity, Christian-themed experiences, precognition, synchronicities.). A skeptical person would say that there must be something wrong with me neurologically or psychologically that explains these experiences without resorting to supernatural possibilities, but I go back and forth on that explanation.

Something I think that gets lost in these discussions is that Christians should believe that humans are not just bags of meat.

Our cognitive functions easily permit phenomena such as "intuition". As we are spiritual creatures, a sensitivity to spiritual dangers is implied in our very existence. If we get a sketchy feeling about the darkness, it may well be that the darkness actually is nearby and means us harm.

If you tell me that you've experienced some bizarre paranormal stuff... well, the least I have to do is acknowledge that such a thing is certainly a possibility. I've seen enough weird stuff in my time, goodness knows.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Plus have you ever notice how the abductees are always terrified and the "Aliens" always want to "Probe" them and do experiements ?

It's close to sleep paralysis stories and in the same way these beings are stopped when the person cries out to The Lord Jesus Christ to save them during the events.

It is so nice of aliens to tuck people safely back in bed when they are done probing them.

 

[cloudyday2]

It is so nice of aliens to tuck people safely back in bed when they are done probing them.

It doesn't always happen that way. There is a perception that UFO abductions are typically bedroom abductions and therefore easily explained-away as sleep paralysis, but in actuality most UFO abductions begin in settings where the abductee is not sleeping. An example would be seeing a UFO while driving and then finding yourself parked on a secluded side road with missing time.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Or maybe demons are the perfect cover for aliens.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

It is so nice of aliens to tuck people safely back in bed when they are done probing them.

 

[FireDragon76]

It is due to a purely naturalistic world view. It also leads to the doctrine of cessationism, where the supernatural acts of the past were done by the end of the first century.

My friends (both Presbyterian pastors) wrote a book (I think it is still in print) called The Collapse of the Brass Heavens by Revs Brad Long and Doug McMurry. It tears that viewpoint apart piece by piece.

But like Rudolph Bultmann pointed out, it's a bit much to ask people to return to believing in an enchanted world, when we actually live in a world where electricity obeys our commands. We simply live in a different world now. A beetle does not push the sun around the earth, for instance; we know celestial bodies behave more or less according to predictable laws.

 

[FireDragon76]

One thing I think about is the gospel story where Jesus exorcises some demons and the Pharisees suggest that Jesus is able to do this because he is serving the devil. A modern day Jesus would perform a miracle in front of Christians and they would react just like the Pharisees; they would say that the devil is empowering Jesus to perform miracles to deceive Christians.

As an aside, I have always felt that Jesus gave an extremely weak response to the accusations of the Pharisees. To assume that the devil would never empower an exorcist (as Jesus argues) is pretty naive. The devil is supposed to be the father of lies. The devil's "department of darkness and dirty tricks" would make the KGB look open and honest.

No, you misunderstand the point Jesus was making, which is far deeper. God is the author of life, the devil has no power to heal. To say what Jesus was doing was somehow aligned with evil is not only blasphemous, but it's a profound confusion of what good and evil actually are. The pharisees were revealing that they were so blind that nothing was going to convince them.

As Jesus said, if you don't believe me, believe the works I do at least. (John 10:37-38)

 

[Dave-W]

But like Rudolph Bultmann pointed out, it's a bit much to ask people to return to believing in an enchanted world, when we actually live in a world where electricity obeys our commands. We simply live in a different world now. A beetle does not push the sun around the earth, for instance; we know celestial bodies behave more or less according to predictable laws.

But God still runs the show, and can alter the laws of physics any time he chooses to do so.

 

[cloudyday2]

No, you misunderstand the point Jesus was making, which is far deeper. God is the author of life, the devil has no power to heal. To say what Jesus was doing was somehow aligned with evil is not only blasphemous, but it's a profound confusion of what good and evil actually are. The pharisees were revealing that they were so blind that nothing was going to convince them.

As Jesus said, if you don't believe me, believe the works I do at least. (John 10:37-38)

In this case, I believe it was an exorcism rather than a healing. Why wouldn't the devil give Jesus authority to exorcise demons as part of some greater evil scheme. From the Pharisee point of view, Jesus was associating with unclean people, violating Sabbath regulations, etc. It was obvious to the Pharisees that Jesus was not inspired by God, so the inspiration of the devil seems to be a sensible conclusion.

Also, I don't know why the devil would not be able to heal people. If the devil can make people sick, then the devil can also order that sickness to depart. In the Jewish view of that time, the devil had authority over all the earth, and the Messiah was supposed to wrestle control away from the devil to initiate the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Also, I don't know why the devil would not be able to heal people. If the devil can make people sick, then the devil can also order that sickness to depart.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and His Deadly Wound Was Healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

• Revelation 13:11-14

 

[cloudyday2]

But God still runs the show, and can alter the laws of physics any time he chooses to do so.

I wonder if God would alter a law of physics, and I wonder if there would be unforeseen ripple effects from a single violation of physics so that the whole system would become screwy everywhere.

On the other hand, maybe the statistical nature of QM gives God wiggle room to create outcomes that serve His purpose that are extremely improbable but not unlawful?

 

[Kaon]

I have noticed many Christians scoff at paranormal/magic/spirits/UFOs/etc. In fact a casual observer might mistakenly assume they are atheists when reading their skeptical and joking responses. ... But then these same people become extremely serious and solemn when discussing paranormal claims in the Bible such as the resurrection of Lazarus.

Everyone plays a role; these people choose the role they play just like those of us who choose to believe in the supernatural play a different role. Both think they are right - which is part of the psychology.

It seems to me that standards should be applied uniformly. We can't have one standard for the religion we inherited and another standard for everything else.

Uniformity cannot exist when there are hundreds of denominations (division).

 

[Dave-W]

I wonder if God would alter a law of physics, and I wonder if there would be unforeseen ripple effects from a single violation of physics so that the whole system would become screwy everywhere.

On the other hand, maybe the statistical nature of QM gives God wiggle room to create outcomes that serve His purpose that are extremely improbable but not unlawful?

I have experienced a “bubble” in time once, where the room I was in with someone passed a couple of hours while the rest of the house only passed 5 minutes.

There was a couple of instances in the OT of God doing that as well. Joshua fighting the Amalakites in Ex 17 and Isaiah calling for the sun and shadows to go backward in 2 Kings 20.

If God can so confine His setting aside the normal laws of physics, I imagine He can take care of all “ripples.”

 

[Kaon]

One thing I think about is the gospel story where Jesus exorcises some demons and the Pharisees suggest that Jesus is able to do this because he is serving the devil. A modern day Jesus would perform a miracle in front of Christians and they would react just like the Pharisees; they would say that the devil is empowering Jesus to perform miracles to deceive Christians.

As an aside, I have always felt that Jesus gave an extremely weak response to the accusations of the Pharisees. To assume that the devil would never empower an exorcist (as Jesus argues) is pretty naive. The devil is supposed to be the father of lies. The devil's "department of darkness and dirty tricks" would make the KGB look open and honest.

They would call Him crazy for even believing that demons can be literally cast out, and for taking the Word of God (Himself - Christ in the Flesh) literally.

The devil can give power, but it does not have power "on tap", so if he gives it to help a demon take a piece of his empire down (exorcism), it would be a waste. When Christ said a house divided cannot stand, He meant that the Enemy is not going to fight/divide against itself, and neither should we.

 

[cloudyday2]

I have experienced a “bubble” in time once, where the room I was in with someone passed a couple of hours while the rest of the house only passed 5 minutes.

There was a couple of instances in the OT of God doing that as well. Joshua fighting the Amalakites in Ex 17 and Isaiah calling for the sun and shadows to go backward in 2 Kings 20.

If God can so confine His setting aside the normal laws of physics, I imagine He can take care of all “ripples.”

Hmmm. That's an interesting experience. I wonder if this was actual time or perceived time. People under hypnosis usually think their sessions are far shorter than actual due to their altered state. It would be great if there was a clock in the room that showed a couple hours of difference from clocks outside the room.

 

[cloudyday2]

They would call Him crazy for even believing that demons can be literally cast out, and for taking the Word of God (Himself - Christ in the Flesh) literally.

The devil can give power, but it does not have power "on tap", so if he gives it to help a demon take a piece of his empire down (exorcism), it would be a waste. When Christ said a house divided cannot stand, He meant that the Enemy is not going to fight/divide against itself, and neither should we.

It isn't necessarily true hostilities between a false Messiah and the demons; maybe the demons are only pretending to leave unwillingly, and that wouldn't take any power from the devil.