christians who dont believe in freewill

[Hikarifuru]

I can't cite the source at the moment but I have read research that determined that decisions are made in the subconscious a few seconds before they register in the conscious. For example, someone makes you angry-->chemicals released and emotion surfaces-->unconscious decision to refrain from violence-->conscious recognition to refrain from violence-->rational justification to refrain from violence. This would mean that our conscious decisions are actually illusions and our actions are literally being "controlled" by chemical reactions and unconscious impulses and instincts. This results in our mammalian brain being more or less controlled by our reptilian brain.

Yeah in some studies scientists have been able to predict choices at an 85% accuracy

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes its still YOU but it doesnt mean you can consciously author your will or actions... saying youre free because its still YOU is just dismissing the problem.

Not being in control doesnt dismiss fault. You should still be stopped or rehabilitated just not PUNISHED. Its the difference between how we treat what we think are different levels of intent.

What do you personally believe "punishment" to be?

I would say putting someone in prison is punishment, even if the ultimate goal is rehabilitation. A parent sending a child to the corner, to their room, etc is punishment, even if it is intended to correct behavior and help the child grow into a healthy adult.

Perhaps you mean something specific by the notion of punishment that I'm not hearing.

I don't view punishment in and of itself as mere retribution for retribution's sake. Punishment and discipline serve purposes, retribution is a possible purpose, but is clearly not the sole possible purpose; such as in the above cases I mention.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ebia]

Yeah in some studies scientists have been able to predict choices at an 85% accuracy

I can probably predict whether my daughter will pick fanta or lemonade to around 85% accuracy. I'm not sure how that indicates lack of choice.

 

[ForJesusChrist]

DeanW, could I ask just why you don't believe in free will? What do you suppose controls us humans?

God Bless

 

[Hikarifuru]

I can probably predict whether my daughter will pick fanta or lemonade to around 85% accuracy. I'm not sure how that indicates lack of choice.

Thats not the sort of thing i was providing. If scientists can show that the brain has decided before you are consciously aware of your decision then you arent consciously authoring your decisions and if this is true then you arent really free are you?

 

[Hikarifuru]

DeanW, could I ask just why you don't believe in free will? What do you suppose controls us humans?

God Bless

I dont really want to get into that here. If this topic really interests you i recommend 'Free Will' by Sam Harris. Its only 70 pages. I believe our environment and our central nervous system control us.

 

[Hikarifuru]

What do you personally believe "punishment" to be?

I would say putting someone in prison is punishment, even if the ultimate goal is rehabilitation. A parent sending a child to the corner, to their room, etc is punishment, even if it is intended to correct behavior and help the child grow into a healthy adult.

Perhaps you mean something specific by the notion of punishment that I'm not hearing.

I don't view punishment in and of itself as mere retribution for lretribution's sake. Punishment and discipline serve purposes, retribution is a possible purpose, but is clearly not the sole possible purpose; such as in the above cases I mention.

-CryptoLutheran

I understand, yes im talking about retribution.

 

[Lollerskates]

I do not believe in free will. I know some christians dont either. Are there any christians here who dont believe in free will?

I dont. It is contradictory to prophecy and election.

 

[Hikarifuru]

I dont. It is contradictory to prophecy and election.

Neat, what implications does that have on a gods ability to find fault in us and punish us?

 

[Lollerskates]

Neat, what implications does that have on a gods ability to find fault in us and punish us?

Well the first philosophical implication (perhaps metaphysical) is that one who knows the future does not prevent choice. So, when I say we don't have free will, I mean we only have limited will. As in, we have the ability to make a choice within the parameters given to us. This not only vindicates the justice of God's omnipotence, it vindicates the fairness of His judgments in us, as we are not robots following code. And, we can therefore make the informed choice to do right and/or wrong within the parameters given to us. We may not be able to build a deathstar and destroy Jupiter, but we may be able to lie or even murder. On the other hand, a fallen angel may be able to do the former, since their parameters (intelligence) may be more qualitative and quantitative.


For example, if I give a child a toy with four primary shapes (triangle, square, rectangle, circle,) with four respective places to put them, and I set it up so that s/he can only move if it means putting a shape in a space, then the child has limited will. Now, s/he can choose to put a circle in a square space - there are 24 different ways s/he could fit the shapes, and only one correct way. But, because I know the all permutations of the child's choices doesn't mean I am controlling the child's decisions. Moreover, if s/he makes the wrong puzzle action, it wasn't me forcing the child. It was his/her own choice within the parameters I gave (limited will)

Depending on how old a child is, limited will is a must. A baby cannot be trusted to sit still and solve the shape puzzle; pieces would be on the floor, in food, in the mouth, etc. Humans are spiritual babies, so we are afforded limited will. It is interesting to note angels could be considered much older - at least spiritual teenagers. They [should] know right from wrong, which is why when they fall...they fall. There is no Savior for them because they should know better. God may trust the holy angels with 100% free will, but it becomes paradoxical, as being holy means being in alignment and unity with God. So, holy free will is God's will anyway. That is the only way anyone can have 100% free will, because otherwise free will for an unholy creature would conflict with and contradict God's will.

There are (super)natural constraints that prevent a created being from going against God's will even if they have a measure of limited will. One example of these constraints is the inability to walk on water without technological aid. Except, the Man who is in unity with God was able to. It is why there is a repetitive talk of "submitting one's self," because that is the only way to be in unity with God, which is the only way ti have 100% free will, which is the only way you can literally be free of constraints - where anything is possible.

Summary: no free will exists as a consequence of unholiness (perfect unity with God.) The only way any created being can have 100% free will is if it is in perfect unity with God.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Ok i see what you mean. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Lollerskates]

Ok i see what you mean. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for listening and entertaining.

 

[Water Cross]

I do not believe in free will. I know some christians dont either. Are there any christians here who dont believe in free will?

It isn't that I don't believe in free will, it is that it is an illusion that we have free will when we make our choices to live our lives born in deficit as sinners, while presided over by an omniscient creator who knew us before we were born and predetermined our lives.

And with our human nature being sinful due to our carnal hedonistic nature, and the laws of God that prosecute wrong action, and in the midst of that predetermined life we're living while an omniscient omnipresent judge is in residence, we cannot have free will.

It can't be free will when there are rules and there are punishments already preset.
And no one comes to God, so as to be forgiven their sins, without God calling them to him. Therefore, even redemption is a matter of determinism.

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. . . .For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” . (John 6:44-45)

This is a nifty read. It is a Christians blog article.

Do You Have Free Will?

by Robin Schumacher

 

[Hikarifuru]

Water Cross

thanks for explaining your views.

 

[kathleen ann]

Hello.

Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will was a great help in addressing all the efforts of self assertion.
We are unable to choose any good. Only Christ in us does good.

Have you read this?

 

[Hikarifuru]

I can understand that reasoning, but no i havent read it.

 

[98cwitr]

I do not believe in free will. I know some christians dont either. Are there any christians here who dont believe in free will?

To answer the question in the OP, I too do not believe free will can exist knowing the attributes of God. Free will doesn't mesh with them at all, and Scripture proves free will to be nothing more than a human perception.

We cannot choose our sexuality for instance, so there is one case of genetics trumping man's will power. IOW, we don't choose our genetic make-up or external environmental influences, but most importantly, we cannot will ourselves unto salvation...that is done strictly via the Will of God.

 

[kathleen ann]

Paul's writing in Romans 9:6-18 tells the reader though they "see" an Israel in their time as though the promise of God has had no effect, (to the nation to repent and be saved), this doesn't mean the Word of God was ineffectual. Rather, Paul goes on to explain there is always of remnant of true Israelites.

he goes on to explain how the Lord does as HE wills in regards to who He shows compassion. The entire text addresses this so well.

 

[Hikarifuru]

To answer the question in the OP, I too do not believe free will can exist knowing the attributes of God. Free will doesn't mesh with them at all, and Scripture proves free will to be nothing more than a human perception.

We cannot choose our sexuality for instance, so there is one case of genetics trumping man's will power. IOW, we don't choose our genetic make-up or external environmental influences, but most importantly, we cannot will ourselves unto salvation...that is done strictly via the Will of God.

Its interesting how you mix a regard for science with a regard for spiritual ideas.

What do you think this implies about the gods ability to judge us or punish us? Note the difference between the meaning of those words.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Kathleen

Very interesting. I didnt recall Paul feeling that way, ill have to look it up again.

I think Peter probably agreed with you but im not sure Paul did. Interesting.