Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

razzelflabben · Dec 26, 2017

Now we looked at the context but maybe a bit of history might help as well. The Jews were looking for a King that would free them from the Romans...they thought that the King would come in power and might but instead, the KING came as a poor baby in a manger. No pomp and circumstance. So the question posed really is about that Kingdom. In essence they wanted to know if Jesus was the expected King or not. What He told them is that the Kingdom they were waiting for was a spiritual Kingdom that He would usher in when they least expected it.

Now can you please tell me what this has to do with the OP topic?

GenemZ · Dec 26, 2017

Buzz_B said:
I see a tangent.

Paul had great love for his countrymen as should we. Paul did not mount up along with Josephus and the others to defend Jerusalem against Rome, nor did any other Apostle or NT Bible writer. So your comment reeks of emotion rather than logic. Patriotism and love are two different things.

Paul would not have fought for knew prophesy pertaining to what was to happen. But, he was not even alive when it took place.

Jesus told the Jews to 'turn the other cheek' because Israel was under foreign occupation. Why? Because God was disciplining the nation for having too much apostasy within. They needed a true spiritual revival, not human rebellion to recover. Under the principle... If "ten righteous were found in the land" God would have spared Israel of its destruction.

Instead, the Jews in their apostasy acted like arrogant Muslims and rebelled against their "great Satan" in stupidity and emotional verve. Zeal without knowledge.

If Israel as a people had repented? And, were found to be doing God's will? Rome would have been pushed out cleanly and restored!

"And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only,
and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God,
which I command you today, and are careful to observe them." Deut 28:13

Are you saying Josephus fought on the side of the Jews?

GenemZ · Dec 26, 2017

Buzz_B said:
If you are showing where that remnant are gathered you are correct. If you are saying God did not give that fleshly nation a legitimate chance to be that holy nation and kingdom of priests to him, well, you already know God does not promise anyone anything he is not willing to give them.

God knew they would fail by law due to sin.

The Law was to reveal they were sinners. Not to make them sin! The Law knowing they would sin provided for naming ones sins and atonement.

Where are you? You think the Law made them worse sinners? Every great Bible hero understood that their sins were covered. The Law was given so men could recognize when they sin. For without the Law men would be oblivious to what was sin... because everyone did the same things without giving it a thought. The Law defined sin. Those who tried to will down sin (legalism) ended up under pressure creating worse sins inwardly and mentally.

Accepting God's atonement was always the sin solution. David was a hero in understanding this reality.

GenemZ · Dec 26, 2017

Buzz_B said:
Being as the original post was not to you, I kind of had the feeling I was being a fool to let you drag me back in again.

You impress me as just seeking to argue. Sorry, that is not my cup of tea.

WHO are you talking to???????????????? You keep saying things without addressing anyone.

Buzz_B · Dec 26, 2017

razzelflabben said:
well, you have been talking to me long enough to know that the first thing I will do when someone asks a question like this is go to context...so let's post the context then go through it bit by bit.

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come,

the first clue to the meaning is here, the question that is being answered is WHEN is the Kingdom of God come....

Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Now with this proclamation by Jesus Himself we can conclude one of three things (will will get to the rest in a moment) either 1. Jesus is the Kingdom 2. the believers are the Kingdom of God or 3. both are true....so let's keep looking.

22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things by this generation.

here Jesus seems to be telling us that He is NOT the Kingdom of God for the Kingdom is more permanent but that He will usher in the Kingdom...which btw is consistent with previous things I have said but we aren't done with the context yet.

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Now we have a history lesson to clarify that people will not expect the Kingdom of God when it comes.
Fair enough, we will not expect it....

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.

32 Remember Lot’s wife!
33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

Now look at the final conclusion that Jesus gives...we cannot hold onto this life and the things here if we expect to see the Kingdom of God. Now let's cross reference and see if it is consistent with the totality of scripture....John 18:36
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now, My kingdom is not of this realm."

Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it.

Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

John 12:25
Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

So putting together just the context and nothing else what we can understand is that the Kingdom of God is not of this world and yet the Kingdom of God is Jesus Christ and the gospel message of salvation by faith. You see, the passage is asking not where does the HS reside which was our previous discussion but when will the Kingdom of God come and the answer is IN CHRIST...His second coming....why what do you think it means when Jesus is asked WHEN will the Kingdom comes and He answers, when you least expect it?

Very intelligently done! I am impressed. I agree with you.

Buzz_B · Dec 26, 2017

razzelflabben said:
Now we looked at the context but maybe a bit of history might help as well. The Jews were looking for a King that would free them from the Romans...they thought that the King would come in power and might but instead, the KING came as a poor baby in a manger. No pomp and circumstance. So the question posed really is about that Kingdom. In essence they wanted to know if Jesus was the expected King or not. What He told them is that the Kingdom they were waiting for was a spiritual Kingdom that He would usher in when they least expected it.

Now can you please tell me what this has to do with the OP topic?

It was a mere diversion so I could take a better look at your ability to reason. You did well.

Buzz_B · Dec 26, 2017

genez said:
WHO are you talking to???????????????? You keep saying things without addressing anyone.

That was post 535. The quote contained in it is to whom I was speaking. We both know her.

That is OK. I sometimes do that, too.

Buzz_B · Dec 26, 2017

genez said:
The Law was to reveal they were sinners. Not to make them sin! The Law knowing they would sin provided for naming ones sins and atonement.

Where are you? You think the Law made them worse sinners? Every great Bible hero understood that their sins were covered. The Law was given so men could recognize when they sin. For without the Law men would be oblivious to what was sin... because everyone did the same things without giving it a thought. The Law defined sin. Those who tried to will down sin (legalism) ended up under pressure creating worse sins inwardly and mentally.

Accepting God's atonement was always the sin solution. David was a hero in understanding this reality.

No. I do not think the law made them worse sinners. The law did amplify sin so that sin could become exceedingly sinful, however. Romans 7:13 And that was to make sure sin was seen and thus the need of Christ's ransom appreciated.

Buzz_B · Dec 26, 2017

genez said:
Paul would not have fought for knew prophesy pertaining to what was to happen. But, he was not even alive when it took place.

Jesus told the Jews to 'turn the other cheek' because Israel was under foreign occupation. Why? Because God was disciplining the nation for having too much apostasy within. They needed a true spiritual revival, not human rebellion to recover. Under the principle... If "ten righteous were found in the land" God would have spared Israel of its destruction.

Instead, the Jews in their apostasy acted like arrogant Muslims and rebelled against their "great Satan" in stupidity and emotional verve. Zeal without knowledge.

If Israel as a people had repented? And, were found to be doing God's will? Rome would have been pushed out cleanly and restored!

"And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only,
and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God,
which I command you today, and are careful to observe them." Deut 28:13

Are you saying Josephus fought on the side of the Jews?

Yes, Paul is thought to have died in 64 and some sources claim Peter also at the same time. But Jerusalem was destroyed in about 70 CE. The fighting against Rome's occupation was going on for years prior, all the way back to the Barabbas who was freed in place of Jesus.

Whether the reason no Christian involved themselves in that fight against Rome as did Josephus was because they knew the outcome or not, that is beside the point. It was only apostate Christians that got involved with the Roman military even after that.

razzelflabben · Dec 27, 2017

Buzz_B said:
Very intelligently done! I am impressed. I agree with you.

lol that is how I have addressed everything on this thread and everything I study in scripture...so if you are so impressed why all the false accusations previously?

razzelflabben · Dec 27, 2017

Buzz_B said:
It was a mere diversion so I could take a better look at your ability to reason. You did well.

lol you have had plenty of time to see how I reason but you have refused to listen.

Buzz_B · Dec 28, 2017

razzelflabben said:
lol that is how I have addressed everything on this thread and everything I study in scripture...so if you are so impressed why all the false accusations previously?

You do have an opinion.

Surely with your power of reason you can understand that when others do not see what you are speaking of and are pointing to as even being real, there is not much they can answer about it except to tell you that you imagine things? And what value would that be?

None.

Buzz_B · Dec 28, 2017

razzelflabben said:
lol you have had plenty of time to see how I reason but you have refused to listen.

You do not wish me to be hasty do you? So I investigated rather to be hasty.

Sorry if that offends you.

razzelflabben · Dec 28, 2017

Buzz_B said:
You do have an opinion.

Surely with your power of reason you can understand that when others do not see what you are speaking of and are pointing to as even being real, there is not much they can answer about it except to tell you that you imagine things? And what value would that be?

None.

lol which is why I pointed out time and again the context and when you didn't like what the context showed you got into a battle with trying to convince me of things that were not mine to take upon myself.

Now, remember our discussion about accepting our weaknesses and speaking about them. One of my weaknesses I talked about here and you still didn't get it because you were too busy trying to prove me wrong without ever taking time to listen. So maybe instead of trying to convince me that I am the problem you should consider that learning to listen is a much more valuable and productive endeavor.

Oh and just for the record I begged everyone on this thread to look at context with me and talk about it and you all refused...that should tell you a lot about who is responsible for all of this nasty stuff going on.

razzelflabben · Dec 28, 2017

Buzz_B said:
You do not wish me to be hasty do you? So I investigated rather to be hasty.

Sorry if that offends you.

lol your original problem was being hasty without taking time to listen...so maybe you should learn not to be so hasty

razzelflabben · Dec 28, 2017

My point is this...you claimed that you hear God and that you know it is God because you are always 100% yet here you repeatedly showed yourself to be listening to a different voice than that of God. It is not okay to proclaim to be listening to God so that people will follow your teaching when in fact it is not God's voice you are listening to. Instead we need to study and discuss what scripture really does say and in that find common ground. This is what I have been asking you all from the get go...look at the context with me and discuss it so that we know what God is saying not what other voices are trying to convince us it says...you refused then tried to convince me that I needed taught by someone other than God on the matter only to come to this point and talk about being impressed with my study. You have been trying to tell everyone here we should listen to you because you hear God when in fact you refuse to look at the context of the passages in question so that we can consider what God Himself says.

This is why this is such a big deal. You do not speak for God...God speaks for God through His word and the indwelling HS and the sooner you accept this the better.

Now to be fair, I do not believe for a second you think you did all of this...I mean that would look like pride but by refusing to address the context presented and the questions asked you were telling everyone here to listen to you not God and that is a huge problem that needs addressed and if you are going to make the claim publically that we should listen to you over God then you should be shown publically that God is to be heard over you.

GenemZ · Dec 28, 2017

Wake up! You're talking in your sleep again.

razzelflabben · Dec 28, 2017

genez said:
Wake up! You're talking in your sleep again.

lol no, if I was talking in my sleep you would know it by the inconsistency of what I am saying. Just you pretending it is inconsistent suggests you are reading it in your sleep.

Willing-heart · Dec 28, 2017

I think it's okay to have guns as long as you do not put your security and safety of yourself or family in it but in God alone. Even war is ultimately not about the bullets that you shoot or the blood that you spill, but it is the stand that you make against evil that God will bless and honour. Personally, I honestly think owning a gun or not owning a gun for one reason or the other is down to the spiritual faith of a person.

Ezra on his mission to rebuild the temple could have asked for an armed escort, but knowing full well that God’s hand was upon him, he felt that a request for protection would dishonour the Lord in the eyes of the pagan king (Neh. 2:9). Fourteen years later, Nehemiah didn’t hesitate to request an armed escort from the king, and Paul was glad for the Roman soldiers who protected him during his journey from Jerusalem to Caesarea (Act 23).

Undoubtedly the Lord gave Ezra special faith for this journey because He knew that Ezra's desire was only to glorify God. Here were several thousand Jews, inexperience in travel and warfare, carrying a fortune in gold and silver, led by a scholar, not a soldier, and planning to travel through dangerous territory that was infested with brigands, and yet their leader didn't want an army to protect them! If anybody deserves the "Great Faith Award," it's Ezra!

If you choose to own a gun or not, it doesn’t really matter but remember your choices have consequences. Personally I never intend on owning a gun and I think history tells me (I could be wrong) that guns cause more harm than good. I think the more important thing is to believe and trust that our Great God is our refuge, shield and fortress and our only true shield is the shield of faith and the belt of truth and with a battle cry be ‘love.’ When we give up the illusion of safety for the promise of security, we can be assured in Christ alone that we have power that cannot be defeated

razzelflabben · Dec 28, 2017

Femi Williams said:
I think it's okay to have guns as long as you do not put your security and safety of yourself or family in it but in God alone. Even war is ultimately not about the bullets that you shoot or the blood that you spill, but it is the stand that you make against evil that God will bless and honour. Personally, I honestly think owning a gun or not owning a gun for one reason or the other is down to the spiritual faith of a person.

Ezra on his mission to rebuild the temple could have asked for an armed escort, but knowing full well that God’s hand was upon him, he felt that a request for protection would dishonour the Lord in the eyes of the pagan king (Neh. 2:9). Fourteen years later, Nehemiah didn’t hesitate to request an armed escort from the king, and Paul was glad for the Roman soldiers who protected him during his journey from Jerusalem to Caesarea (Act 23).

Undoubtedly the Lord gave Ezra special faith for this journey because He knew that Ezra's desire was only to glorify God. Here were several thousand Jews, inexperience in travel and warfare, carrying a fortune in gold and silver, led by a scholar, not a soldier, and planning to travel through dangerous territory that was infested with brigands, and yet their leader didn't want an army to protect them! If anybody deserves the "Great Faith Award," it's Ezra!

If you choose to own a gun or not, it doesn’t really matter but remember your choices have consequences. Personally I never intend on owning a gun and I think history tells me (I could be wrong) that guns cause more harm than good. I think the more important thing is to believe and trust that our Great God is our refuge, shield and fortress and our only true shield is the shield of faith and the belt of truth and with a battle cry be ‘love.’ When we give up the illusion of safety for the promise of security, we can be assured in Christ alone that we have power that cannot be defeated

the only place you and I disagree on here is the owning of guns cause more harm than good...the stats I have seen show the opposite and since that is all we have is stats I have to side with less harm on that one.

Bravo to the rest.

Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

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