Christians making a hell on earth for other people? Is that possible?

[RBPerry]

Yes, it is. Well - at least they can be part of a community that does so, I think.

See Nazi Germany, for instance. To my knowledge, many Christians voted for Hitler making a hell on earth for Jews. Christians collaborated in the Wehrmacht attacking other countries and helped German economy be strong enough to sustain such a war.
Throughout the ages Christians always were part of the Western countries that persecuted the Jews. And it's not even limited to Jews, I think.
In my opinion, Christians should be aware of the fact that they can become dangerous indeed.

Thomas

All I can say to your comment , it that is one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard.

 

[coffee4u]

Often people don't provide any sources proclaiming things to be true. It's a German source, but someone who can speak German might check to see if I mistranslated. So it's at least some sort of documentation that can be provided here.
However, it is a problem posting sources in another languages, I hear you.
I only resort to German, because there is no proper analysis in English about German Christians at that time that I could find.

I think many Englich speaking brothers and sisters still think, that the most of German Christians stood strong and opposed Hitler. The opposite seems to be true if you take a look at German churches at that time. If I want to tackle what I would call a myth about Christians in Germany of back then... I need to provide German sources since there I don't find any accurate English ones.

While it is true that some indivduals like Dietrich Bonhoeffer spoke up... churches in their majority seem to have failed:
My source summarizes it like this: "Politisch stand [Krawelietzki] in den zwanziger Jahren wie die meisten Leiter aus dem konservativ-kirchlichen Spektrum der DNVP nahe"
which is "politically, he [the leader of that church] favored the DNVP [Hitlers later coalition partner that helped him assume power in 1933] in the 1920s, like most of the leaders from conservative christian churches did."
According to that source, most of the evangelical churches took a very bad stance. Unfortunately.

Christians are called to love others. Anyone who follows Jesus and voted for Hitler knowing he planned to commit mass murder on the weak, frail and anyone he deemed unworthy either was not a born again Christian or they were completely brainwashed and conned and believed he stood for something else. There are no other options. Christianity and mass murder do not go together, the same way a dedicated Jewish person would not eat pork knowingly. It doesn't matter what church label a person has either, that is not what makes a person a Christian. It is confessing Jesus is lord and following his commandments, only that person is a Christian. So to find out how many Christians voted you would need to know the state of their heart, not what label they called themselves.

Matthew 25
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’


37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

 

[thomas_t]

here comes another example of a church gone wrong at that time. english - Liebenzeller Mission
At least they are honest. The site is in English so everyone could see what kind of ministry that is as of today.
They deeply regret that they called to support Hitler and that they were distinctly antisemitic.

Christians are called to love others. Anyone who follows Jesus and voted for Hitler knowing he planned to commit mass murder on the weak, frail and anyone he deemed unworthy either was not a born again Christian or they were completely brainwashed and conned and believed he stood for something else. There are no other options. Christianity and mass murder do not go together, the same way a dedicated Jewish person would not eat pork knowingly. It doesn't matter what church label a person has either, that is not what makes a person a Christian. It is confessing Jesus is lord and following his commandments, only that person is a Christian. So to find out how many Christians voted you would need to know the state of their heart, not what label they called themselves.

You say more or less you can't be a Christian and knowingly support Hitler and his policies concerning the weak in this world.
In contrast, this church mentioned above say they are Christians now and used to be Christians also back then. They just made mistakes they say...
They argue the way you suggested and say they had been fooled, they say they were "seduced" (source text in German language: click here)

 

[coffee4u]

here comes another example of a church gone wrong at that time. english - Liebenzeller Mission
At least they are honest. The site is in English so everyone could see what kind of ministry that is as of today.
They deeply regret that they called to support Hitler and that they were distinctly antisemitic.

You say more or less you can't be a Christian and knowingly support Hitler and his policies concerning the weak in this world.
In contrast, this church mentioned above say they are Christians now and used to be Christians also back then. They just made mistakes they say...
They argue the way you suggested and say they had been fooled, they say they were "seduced" (source text in German language: click here)

The modern statement of faith looks sound enough for what it is but it does not cover everything.
Only God can judge people's hearts, but murder of innocents is the very opposite of true Christianity.
If Hitler stood up and told them he planned to gas Jews and the diabled no true Christian would vote for that, no.
Since none of us was there, none of them are here to say their side so no one can truly say what went on.
Why even bring it up? This is gone and past.

 

[Tinker Grey]

no true Christian

Nor any true scotsman.

Hitler or no, isn't the point of this thread that Christians can be fooled and should not be sure that they can't?

 

[RBPerry]

Nor any true scotsman.

Hitler or no, isn't the point of this thread that Christians can be fooled and should not be sure that they can't?

You are correct, we can be fooled.

 

[thomas_t]

Why even bring it up?

people bring it up when they say that no true Christian can ever make a hell on earth for anybody.
Now we see that churches under the Christian flag more often than not joined Hitler in Germany. I think for many readers, this comes as a surprise here. That's why I keep posting this stuff.

You say we are unable to evaluate the situation? Some facts are clear, though.
History shows what Hitler did to discriminate against Jews (German source: 1933-1945: Verdrängung und Vernichtung | bpb )
Public measures included calls to boycott Jewish stores (1933). By 1938, 70% of Jewish store owners had given up.
And from 1935 on, Jews were prohibited from practicing certain professions such as: doctors, scientists, laywers etc.

German population saw all of this, so the Christians must have heard of this, too.

Nevertheless churches maintained their support for Hitler in many cases for long years after 1933.
For documantation by a German source, click Freikirchen in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus – Wikipedia

 

[coffee4u]

people bring it up when they say that no true Christian can ever make a hell on earth for anybody.
Now we see that churches under the Christian flag more often than not joined Hitler in Germany. I think for many readers, this comes as a surprise here. That's why I keep posting this stuff.

You say we are unable to evaluate the situation? Some facts are clear, though.
History shows what Hitler did to discriminate against Jews (German source: 1933-1945: Verdrängung und Vernichtung | bpb )
Public measures included calls to boycott Jewish stores (1933). By 1938, 70% of Jewish store owners had given up.
And from 1935 on, Jews were prohibited from practicing certain professions such as: doctors, scientists, laywers etc.

German population saw all of this, so the Christians must have heard of this, too.

Nevertheless churches maintained their support for Hitler in many cases for long years after 1933.
For documantation by a German source, click Freikirchen in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus – Wikipedia

Churches are not Christians.
Churches are buildings were people gather.
Church hierarchy or leaders may or may not be Christians. The body of Christ which is the true church is to only put their trust in God and his word, not in men.

Why do you think Jesus spoke of the Pharisees as he did? They were false church leaders. Men who claimed to be Godly leaders who were not. They used the label for their own purposes. They didn't speak for God at all.
Matthew 23
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them.
He said beware the wolves who look like sheep and that you will know them by their fruits, by their deeds.
Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

 

[Ophiolite]

Often people don't provide any sources proclaiming things to be true. It's a German source, but someone who can speak German might check to see if I mistranslated. So it's at least some sort of documentation that can be provided here.

I am going slightly off-topic, but I just wanted to applaud your approach. As you accurately note many people on CF make assertions without any attempt to support them, even when asked to do so. (Sometimes discourteously suggesting we "just Google it". ) While the links in a foreign language are not ideal they are an honest and proactive attempt to provide justification for your assertions. That is appreciated.

And frankly, if native English speakers were not typically so devoid of any foreign language skills then the occasional link in German, or Italian, or Mandarin would not merit comment. I feel entitled to lambast native English speakers who lack any other language since after attempts spanning six decades to learn another language (tried French, German, Italian, Spanish, Finnish, Norwegian, Dutch, Russian, Japanese, Mandarin, Indonesian, Latin) I still speak only English.

 

[BigV]

In my opinion, Christians should be aware of the fact that they can become dangerous indeed.

This hasn't stopped. Most of the US Military are Christians and Christians in America seem to love war. I think Christians love to propagate their view, and American Christians love to propage 'democracy' using military.

So what are we to make of the Christians who stopped Nazi Germany? Or of the Muslims and Sikhs and whomever else supported the Nazis?

I think Nazi's were stopped by the Red Army more so than any other. Most Nazi German troops died on the Eastern Front. In fact, Hitler's Army easily conquered the Western countries before attacking the USSR.

 

[BigV]

Nevertheless churches maintained their support for Hitler in many cases for long years after 1933.

I don't mean to compare Trump and Hitler, but I can see how Churches could support someone who furthers their cause even if their behavior contradicts Christian values.

Current US President is by no means representative of Christian values (with his views on women and his many divorces), nonetheless, Trump has a strong support among American Christians due to his stance on public support of Christianity. Trump loves saying "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" and has an Evangelical as his spiritual adviser.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Yes, it is. Well - at least they can be part of a community that does so, I think.

See Nazi Germany, for instance. To my knowledge, many Christians voted for Hitler making a hell on earth for Jews. Christians collaborated in the Wehrmacht attacking other countries and helped German economy be strong enough to sustain such a war.
Throughout the ages Christians always were part of the Western countries that persecuted the Jews. And it's not even limited to Jews, I think.
In my opinion, Christians should be aware of the fact that they can become dangerous indeed.

Thomas

Yes, but most so called Christians in Germany at the time were theological liberals, ie heretics. Liberal theology began Germany about 150 years before WWII and by that time no longer accepted the objective moral law of God as revealed in the bible. Therefore the embraced relativistic morality providing the open door for the acceptance of Nazism and the holocaust. This was true of most of the protestants. The Catholic situation is a little more complex though liberal theology was starting to infect the German Catholic church at this time too. Unfortunately for the RCC there was still some left over antisemitism that also caused many to accept Nazism.

 

[Ed1wolf]

This hasn't stopped. Most of the US Military are Christians and Christians in America seem to love war. I think Christians love to propagate their view, and American Christians love to propage 'democracy' using military.

I dont see any evidence of orthodox Christians in America loving war. Most of the military industrial complex is made up of theologically liberal neo-cons. Conservative Christians have supported recent wars due to many of them being necessary, though that doesn't mean that they love war.

bv: I think Nazi's were stopped by the Red Army more so than any other. Most Nazi German troops died on the Eastern Front. In fact, Hitler's Army easily conquered the Western countries before attacking the USSR.

Only because Hitler sent many more troops to Russia than other nations and underestimated the toughness of the Russian army especially when protecting their homeland.

 

[thomas_t]

Yes, but most so called Christians in Germany at the time were theological liberals, ie heretics. Liberal theology began Germany about 150 years before WWII and by that time no longer accepted the objective moral law of God as revealed in the bible. Therefore the embraced relativistic morality providing the open door for the acceptance of Nazism and the holocaust. This was true of most of the protestants.

nice hypothesis, but it comes with no evidence.
My German source, LINK, says it was the conservative leaders that sided with the DNVP (Hitlers later coalition party). see post 39.
In my opinion, when you come up with a claim, it's necessary to back it up using a decent source.
@Ophiolite has explained this very well.

 

[Ed1wolf]

nice hypothesis, but it comes with no evidence.
My German source, LINK, says it was the conservative leaders that sided with the DNVP (Hitlers later coalition party). see post 39.
In my opinion, when you come up with a claim, it's necessary to back it up using a decent source.
@Ophiolite has explained this very well.

Read the Twisted Cross by Doris L. Bergen. There were very few conservative denominations in Germany even back then, Bonhoeffer belonged to one of the few. Also, read any good book on the history of Christian theology. Ever hear of Rudolf Bultmann, Julius Wellhausen, Alfred Rosenberg, and I could name many others?

 

[thomas_t]

Read the Twisted Cross by Doris L. Bergen. [...] Bonhoeffer belonged to one of the few. Also, read any good book on the history of Christian theology. Ever hear of Rudolf Bultmann, Julius Wellhausen, Alfred Rosenberg, and I could name many others?

no, please. Cheackable source means that you indicate the page of said book and post it. Or at least a quote. Then we could check the source and see if the author backed anything up he said, or if he just resorted to declaration as so many other people do, unfortunately.
Just posting a name of another person having claimed something... means nothing.
He could have stated his assertion without backing it up, either.
The least thing you could do is name the church Bonhoeffer belonged to and then show us why it was a conservative one, more conservative than others.
"Read a book"... this is shifting the burden of proof for your assertion.
Stating that you could name "good books" is not the same as citing a decent source for your exact claim.
Why can't so many people back their assertions up here? Honestly, it's a shame, I think.

 

[John Helpher]

In my opinion, Christians should be aware of the fact that they can become dangerous indeed.

These kinds of assessments are always strange to me, because the answer seems so obvious. In the gospels, Jesus is called the cornerstone. It's not just a religious label; it's a practical comparison . A cornerstone is a tool used for measuring right angels and for measuring straight walls; it is used to construct a solid foundation which guides the way for a solid building.

In other words, the teachings of Jesus are the tool of measurement that we're supposed to use for everything else. Are people who claim to be Christian acting like nazis?; okay, compare that behavior to the teachings of Jesus. Did Jesus teach his followers to behave like nazis? No? Then those people claiming to be Christian, but who behave in a way contrary to what Jesus taught obviously are not actual Christians. Easy, isn't it?

And yet, this idea of pointing to the worst examples of professing Christians behaving in an unchristian manner and then blaming Christianity for it persists. For most people I'd say this is mostly due to lazy thinking. They neither know nor care what Jesus actually taught; their understanding of Christianity goes only so far as a consideration of who seems to be shouting the loudest or making the most sensational spectacle (like those professing Christians who turned out to be nazis).

On the other hand, there do seem to be those people who aren't just lazy thinkers. For whatever reason (probably some kind of bitterness toward God) they talk about the problems of Christianity with a hint of malicious disregard for discerning the truth. They want others to have the worst possible impression of what Christianity is. They want people to feel so shocked that those people would then feel little interest in further exploration of the values of Christianity.

Either way, a sincere person will not be fooled by these obstacles. A sincere person will look carefully at what Jesus taught, and use the cornerstone to measure everything.

 

[Ed1wolf]

no, please. Cheackable source means that you indicate the page of said book and post it. Or at least a quote. Then we could check the source and see if the author backed anything up he said, or if he just resorted to declaration as so many other people do, unfortunately.

Ok read page 143 where the author records that the German Christian Church rejected the entire OT as not part of the canon because of its jewish source. Throwing out the OT throws out God's objective moral law called the Ten Commandments including the key command "You shall not murder". It also throws out the Genesis teaching that ALL humans are created in the image of God including jews. Thereby Opening the door to the holocaust. BTW the author is a woman.

tt: Just posting a name of another person having claimed something... means nothing.
He could have stated his assertion without backing it up, either.

All those people I named were founders of liberal theology and all were Germans long before WWII. In fact even in America in the North, many mainstream denominations had rejected biblical inerrancy as well by the 1930s and 40s. And we know that European countries are usually at the front end of liberal thought, so many of their churches had already become liberal by WWI.

tt: The least thing you could do is name the church Bonhoeffer belonged to and then show us why it was a conservative one, more conservative than others.

He belonged to the Confessing Church which was evangelical and still believed in inerrancy. Unfortunately Though later in the war some of them started capitulating to the Nazis, mostly because of fear and intimidation.

tt: "Read a book"... this is shifting the burden of proof for your assertion.
Stating that you could name "good books" is not the same as citing a decent source for your exact claim.
Why can't so many people back their assertions up here? Honestly, it's a shame, I think.

See above.

 

[thomas_t]

For most people I'd say this is mostly due to lazy thinking.

oh I praise God I'm not most people so then.
Actually I'm not quite sure about these Nazi supporters being Christians or not.
In this thread I entirely listen to what people say.
What I can say is this 1) former Hitler supporting churches are seen as equals to those who stayed neutral here in Germany. And 2) the churches that used to support Hitler in the past... they say there were made up of Christians also back then. They make no difference between church members of back then and of church members today, as I see it.
I used to attend a church that supported Hitler. They are still friends of mine. I'm just imagining telling them "you know what? all members of your church 70 (80) years ago were just pretenders!" They would say everything in response but never agree. They'd say "aww they made mistakes, but we all made mistakes!" "the situation was so difficult" "what would you have done?" "but they saw how sexually immoral people showed up in Berlin and Hitler put an end to this" "they were anti-communist!". They are millions of excuses like this.
I'm unsure about which position is the right one. Yours or theirs.
If it's yours... then they are two stories being told:
the international being that churches supporting Hitler were false churches...
and the German one claiming they were true believing churches ...and they just made mistakes in the past.
If your version is the correct one, then it didn't begin in 1933 that these churches went astray, they supported the DNVP way earlier (that was Hitlers coalition partner in 1933. It's my German source above in this thread that claims so).
Then we would need to ask ourselves why there were so many churches of Christian confession that ended up supporting Hitler.
Thomas

 

[thomas_t]

He belonged to the Confessing Church which was evangelical and still believed in inerrancy.

ah this is your measure for being theologically conservative? You didn't say..
My source (as stated above) said the conservative leaders supported Hitler... however my source understood "conservative" in a political sense. That's how they argued. Hitler was conservative as opposed to the parties governing Weimar republic or even the communists and they thought that was good.

But when it comes to the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy, you seem to be making a point here. The three churches coming quickly to my mind that have sided with the Nazis don't claim Biblical inerrancy. As you say.

Ok read page 143 where the author records that

no that's not a checkable source. In a sense that I'm not going to buy that book to read that page. I thought you would quote that book to show how his study was set up coming to the conclusion you're hinting at. What was his measure he used assigning the label "conservative" to churches and groups... and how many churches did he review and how did he come to the conclusion that the more conservative churches outnumbered the more liberal ones in staying neutral towards Hitler.
Just because someone says something, or "records" something, as you say, that doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
To my kn owledge, the Confessing Church was a group within the mainline protestant church that formed during the Nazi regime, they didn't exist before.