Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

MamaZ · Jul 10, 2008

BrightCandle said:
Why was Jesus crucified? Because mankind broke God's law, which is sin. The Godhead determined that Jesus would died on our behalf, so any human being if they repented and turned away from sin could have eternal life. So I ask, why in God's name would any one claiming to be a follower of Jesus teach that the law is no long applicable to Christians? That is totally ludicrous! Once the Holy Spirit takes control of our lives we will have a much greater sense of the terrible cost of sin to ourselves. And that our individual sins, and the totality of sin that mankind has committed is what nailed Jesus to the cross, so why would we want now to go out and sin, by breaking any of God's Ten Commandments?

Where do you see that we are to repent and turn unto the Law? For we are to turn unto Christ. Not the Law. The law is not now nor never was over the body of Christ. It is Christ who is the head of the His body and by the the Holy Spirit living in us we have been set free from the law of sin and death. Any thing we do without faith is sin. Who ever said that once a man is born of the Spirit of God with Gods own nature in us leads us to sin? That is why we are new creations in Christ Jesus.. We are Gods own possession..

TheCheat1 · Jul 10, 2008

Here is what it comes down to: the Scripture makes it clear that we are not under the Law. We are under grace (Romans 6:14), slaves to Christ (Ephesians 6:6), led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:18), and beloved of the Father (John 16:27) -- but not under the Law (read all of those verses again). Plainly stated, you either believe that or deny Scripture.

Galatians, Romans, Hebrews, Matthew 5:17-20, Isaiah, James... they all make it perfectly clear: there is a New Covenant under the Messiah (Greek: Christ).

Sincerely,

Joe

WailingWall · Jul 12, 2008

holo said:
Do your really believe God doesn't hear my prayers, or the prayers of anybody else who doesn't observe the sabbath?

Hi Holo
Sorry its taken me so long to answer this question. Its been buggin me ever since you asked the question. That was only one scripture. I dont base my beliefs on a single scripture. We look through a glass darkly. If i could find more scripture to back that up i might have to come to that conclusion. Ive found no others. I think it would be rather pompus of me to say God hears my prayers and does not hear yours based on a single scripture. Forgive me for implying so.

WailingWall · Jul 12, 2008

The Cheat said:
Here is what it comes down to: the Scripture makes it clear that we are not under the Law. We are under grace (Romans 6:14),

Would take a while to go through all the 1 liners posted, so lets just look at the first. Cheat claims this scripture means the commandments are no more because we are under grace.

Romans 6:12-15
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Ive highlighted the one line which Cheat is asking us to read. But look whats written all around that 1 line. All sorts of scripture saying we are still capable of sin. So what is sin according to the scriptures

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Pretty simple to figure. If you can still sin, the commandments are still in affect.

So what does the highlighted line of scripture mean? Is it the penalty of the law if we are walking in the spirit of the law? Is it speaking of a time after you graduated from law school (the schoolmaster)? Even Peter understood that Pauls writings were hard to understand.

2 PETER 3 [15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which THEY THAT ARE UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE WREST, AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.

But if you were to go through the whole book of Romans you would have to conclude that we still must keep the law.

ROMANS 2 [12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 3 is clearly pointing out that we could never be justified by the works of the law. We can only truly be justified by grace through faith. For all have sinned, and come short of keeping the commandments. Filthy rags we are! With all that being said, are we to make void the law? GOD FORBID!

ROMANS6 [1] What shall we say then? SHALL WE CONTINUE IN SIN, that grace may abound? [2] GOD FORBID. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

ROMANS 6 [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE. [15] What then? SHALL WE SIN, because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID. [16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

All these scriptures out of Romans are telling us the same thing. We as christians are saved by grace but we are still capable of sinning. We are then told we are not to sin. So......according to the bible (The Word of God), what is sin?

1 JOHN 3 [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW

Pretty simple after you get by the 1 liner.

BrightCandle · Jul 12, 2008

MamaZ said:
Where do you see that we are to repent and turn unto the Law? For we are to turn unto Christ. Not the Law. The law is not now nor never was over the body of Christ. It is Christ who is the head of the His body and by the the Holy Spirit living in us we have been set free from the law of sin and death. Any thing we do without faith is sin. Who ever said that once a man is born of the Spirit of God with Gods own nature in us leads us to sin? That is why we are new creations in Christ Jesus.. We are Gods own possession..

I never said that we turn to the law for salvation. However, if you keep on sinning by breaking the law of God, even after you know that sin is what put Jesus on the cross then you will be lost. That is not faith it is presumption. When we are born again we are not then made sinless, we must keep walking with Jesus moment by moment, and we cannot justify sinning just because we can say that we are now Christians. Read the book of I John, it is full of texts that expose the false type of Christianity that you are proposing, a Christianity that justifies sinning under the cloak of "grace". John called those professed Christians that do so "liars", (see I John 2:4).

MamaZ · Jul 12, 2008

BrightCandle said:
I never said that we turn to the law for salvation. However, if you keep on sinning by breaking the law of God, even after you know that sin is what put Jesus on the cross then you will be lost. That is not faith it is presumption. When we are born again we are not then made sinless, we must keep walking with Jesus moment by moment, and we cannot justify sinning just because we can say that we are now Christians. Read the book of I John, it is full of texts that expose the false type of Christianity that you are proposing, a Christianity that justifies sinning under the cloak of "grace". John called those professed Christians that do so "liars", (see I John 2:4).

Who said anything about when we become born again that we keep on sinning? For sinning can be anything not done in faith. We now have a regenerated heart and it is Christ in us giving us the power to overcome the world. It is not a list of rules.. It is walking in the Spirit and contiunally being filled with the Spirit.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 12, 2008

Sheesh. This thread is still going. So is not worshipping on Saturday a sin or not. Am I a law-breaker.

tulc · Jul 12, 2008

BrightCandle said:
I never said that we turn to the law for salvation. However, if you keep on sinning by breaking the law of God, even after you know that sin is what put Jesus on the cross then you will be lost. That is not faith it is presumption. When we are born again we are not then made sinless, we must keep walking with Jesus moment by moment, and we cannot justify sinning just because we can say that we are now Christians. Read the book of I John, it is full of texts that expose the false type of Christianity that you are proposing, a Christianity that justifies sinning under the cloak of "grace". John called those professed Christians that do so "liars", (see I John 2:4).

Ok, so how are we sinning? I hate to keep getting back to this but what are we doing on Saturday that is sinful?
tulc(will keep asking until someone can explain it)

visionary · Jul 12, 2008

Yes, you are a lawbreaker, according to the Law. That puts you least in the kingdom of heaven.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 12, 2008

visionary said:
Yes, you are a lawbreaker, according to the Law. That puts you least in the kingdom of heaven.

That is Ok with me. Better than not being in it at all.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the fruits of it.

Reve 12:8 and not He is strong, neither Place found of Them still in the Heaven

tulc · Jul 12, 2008

visionary said:
Yes, you are a lawbreaker, according to the Law. That puts you least in the kingdom of heaven.

Ok. What Law am I breaking?
tulc(try and be specific please)

visionary · Jul 12, 2008

tulc said:
Ok. What Law am I breaking?
tulc(try and be specific please)

Let me see...

Do you worship idols?
Do you swear using the Lord's name?
Do you have any other god but God?
Do you remember His Sabbath?
You do commit adultry?
Do you lie?
Do you steal?
Do you covet?
Do you kill?
Do you honor your mother and father?

Pick one.. In fact go down the list and see how many you do keep? Of course, Remember to ask for forgiveness and you read each and the Lord convicts you that it is a sin, and brings to rembrance the occasion that you broke it.

This is between you and the Lord.. and He is the judge.. so do not post your sins unless it is to ask one of us to forgive you.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 12, 2008

visionary said:
Let me see...

Pick one.. In fact go down the list and see how many you do keep? Of course, Remember to ask for forgiveness and you read each and the Lord convicts you that it is a sin, and brings to rembrance the occasion that you broke it.

This is between you and the Lord.. and He is the judge.. so do not post your sins unless it is to ask one of us to forgive you.

Ya mean I don't have to go to a Catholic Priest afterall??

tulc · Jul 12, 2008

visionary said:
Let me see...

Do you worship idols?
Do you swear using the Lord's name?
Do you have any other god but God?
Do you remember His Sabbath?
You do commit adultry?
Do you lie?
Do you steal?
Do you covet?
Do you kill?
Do you honor your mother and father?

Pick one.. In fact go down the list and see how many you do keep? Of course, Remember to ask for forgiveness and you read each and the Lord convicts you that it is a sin, and brings to rembrance the occasion that you broke it.

This is between you and the Lord.. and He is the judge.. so do not post your sins unless it is to ask one of us to forgive you.

Hmmmm So really there isn't anything we do that desecrates the Sabbath?
tulc(that's the impression I'm getting anyway)

dobieman0488 · Jul 12, 2008

just be holy on the sabbath.

tulc · Jul 12, 2008

dobieman0488 said:
just be holy on the sabbath.

Ahhh! Something we should try and be everyday.
tulc(good post)

visionary · Jul 13, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Ya mean I don't have to go to a Catholic Priest afterall??

not unless you think the rewards for doing so are worth it.

visionary · Jul 13, 2008

tulc said:
Hmmmm So really there isn't anything we do that desecrates the Sabbath?
tulc(that's the impression I'm getting anyway)

I would say the this is something that you and the Lord should work on together..

Isa 58:13
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from
1.) doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and
2.) call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD,
3.) honourable; and shalt honour him,
4.) not doing thine own ways,
5.) nor finding thine own pleasure,
6.) nor speaking thine own words:

If you can do all those listed here from sunset friday night to sunset saturday night.... then you and the Lord have strong relationship that this world can not break.

MamaZ · Jul 13, 2008

visionary said:
I would say the this is something that you and the Lord should work on together..

Isa 58:13
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from
1.) doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and
2.) call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD,
3.) honourable; and shalt honour him,
4.) not doing thine own ways,
5.) nor finding thine own pleasure,
6.) nor speaking thine own words:

If you can do all those listed here from sunset friday night to sunset saturday night.... then you and the Lord have strong relationship that this world can not break.

We already have a strong relationship that even the law cannot break. It is Christ in us the Hope of Glory. It is more intimate than anything written in stone. It is Christ Spirit dwelling in the very hearts of His believer. Leading and guiding us and keeping us strong in Him. For He is the Alpha and the Omega. Praise be to His name.

visionary · Jul 13, 2008

You need to understand the old and new covenant..

Here is the part that changed...

Old covenant... written on stone

De 5:27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.

This is without the Holy Spirit. This is man's efforts which are never up to par..

Now new covenant...

Written in the heart..

Here is how God explain the new covenant...

Jer 31:33 - Show Context
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is with the Holy Spirit and God written those same commandments Himself upon the heart....

Big difference in who is doing the work.. us or God.

Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

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