Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

PROPHECYKID · May 29, 2008

New_Wineskin said:
quote:
So in order to defend this position, you have to back yourselves into the corner of lawlessness..

Why do you write that ?

If you read the post that caused that comment you should understand why

Meshavrischika · May 29, 2008

PROPHECYKID said:
The law was written on the hearts of men before it was written on stone. Cain could not be guilty of murder if the law had not existed.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
(BBE) Because, till the law came, sin was in existence, but sin is not put to the account of anyone when there is no law to be broken.

Sin was in the world before the written law existed. So why was Cains sin accounted for? The law was written on his heart.

but then you have to consider the idea that if it was written in his heart, why bother to write it out? because we have fallen from our true purpose as much as they did when they took the sabbath from a day of relationship and being with God and turned it into a day of fear of breaking the rules. (But this is again, MHO)

Meshavrischika · May 29, 2008

JudgeEden said:
Why do some Christians remind others to honor their father and mother, or some of the other commandments. But when the Sabbath is mentioned they say "We are not obligated" do you guys say that out of laziness?

I dont mean to be rude, but thats what it seems like. Of course none of us never always kept the Sabbath, probably never at all. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't start.

Remember this little verse?

Matthew 5:17-19
"17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

There is also this verse:

Revelation 12:16-17

"17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

You cannot ignore those scriptures that easily. Yeah, I know, its not that convenient to keep the Sabbath. But I think you guys can survive without turning on an oven for a day.

you can keep the commandments and the law and never fulfill them... that's what he did... not end them, but actually fulfill what was intended (without hiding behind fences and protection)

but keeping the commandments of God is not about obedience as we understand it in general society. you do because you are, not because you try, not because of effort that we normally associate with obedience, but because it is in you and from you because of relationship with Him... that's what Rev is talking about... not those just obedient in action

Meshavrischika · May 29, 2008

vanshan said:
Here's an excerpt from the article, "The Grace of Christ and the Law of Moses" located in the recently published Orthodox Study Bible, p. 90 (Thomas Nelson, 2008):

The Law was given for a purpose, which has now been fulfilled in Christ. We are no longer bound to the letter of the law, but it was given to make us aware of our disobedience, or difficulty to be obedient to God. We now have the Holy Spirit as an aid to convict us. Keeping the Sabbath was a rule created to show man how hard obedience is for us. Now the Holy Spirit shows us that, so the keeping of the Sabbath is no longer a legalistic rule we must follow. Instead we celebrate the Lord's Day as holy, since it was the day of the week God chose to be raised from the dead. It's a celebration of the victorious Christ who destroyed death for us, so that we could be received into Heaven.

Basil

actually, if you look up the "days" thread in the messianic area you'll see that it's more likely he was raised on Saturday... not Sunday... making the Sabbath the Sabbath, and the Lord's day as well.

calluna · May 29, 2008

PROPHECYKID said:
If you read the post that caused that comment you should understand why

It was a joke, of course. At least, we assume that the rules were being kept.

Meshavrischika · May 29, 2008

tulc said:
Sorry, I always get a little nervous when people start suggesting the Church has been corrupted.
tulc(it's a pet peeve of mine, I hope I didn't offend you)

do you not believe what presents itself as "the church" is not corrupted? those who are truely the church even have some members who have not opened their eyes to the truth and most church practices miss the mark on the true purpose of Christ to begin with... so I'd say "church" as a building and organization and group of people is surely corrupt, but the body of Christ as the church, is not.

PROPHECYKID · May 29, 2008

ElsanRandiMom said:
but then you have to consider the idea that if it was written in his heart, why bother to write it out? because we have fallen from our true purpose as much as they did when they took the sabbath from a day of relationship and being with God and turned it into a day of fear of breaking the rules. (But this is again, MHO)

Seems like you answered your own question.

PROPHECYKID · May 29, 2008

you can keep the commandments and the law and never fulfill them...

If you don't keep them out of love for love is the fulfilling of the law

PROPHECYKID · May 29, 2008

holo said:
But does the bible say this? Does the bible divide the law into certain "civil" or "ceremonial" parts? And when was (a certain portion of) the law extended to apply not only to gentiles, even to believers, who are not only supposedly DEAD to the law, but heirs to Abraham, who lived by FAITH?

No, the bible is clear, and Jesus even made a point of it, saying that He came NOT to abolish the law, that in fact not an IOTA of it should pass until it was all fulfilled. To claim that you as a gentile and/or born again believer is under a certain part of the mosaic law is simply indefensible from the bible. IF you are under the law, you are under the ENTIRE law. If you are NOT under the law, you are not under ANY of the law. Like Abraham, who is our spiritual forefather. He wasn't under the law. I don't see exactly why so many of you WANT to be under the law, anyway.

Ok Holo.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Which law is Paul talking about here? Is he referring to the 613 laws or a particular set of laws?

Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

When James refers to the Royal law is he speaking of the 613 laws as well?

PROPHECYKID · May 29, 2008

If you are NOT under the law, you are not under ANY of the law. Like Abraham, who is our spiritual forefather. He wasn't under the law. I don't see exactly why so many of you WANT to be under the law, anyway.

The question is, What does it mean to be under the law? Being under the law does not mean abiding by the law.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Being under the law means being under the condemnation of the law. The wages of sin is death and sin comes because of the presence of the law. Grace is God's antidote to sin. If you see being under the law as being subject to the law then that is not what the bible proves.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

To be carnally minded or living by the flesh is death because the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

So sin works death in Paul. Paul is saying that the law is spiritual and he cannot be subject to it because he is carnal and that is why it works death in him. He speaks from a perspective of a carnal man in the flesh.

You will agree that if you are not under grace you are lost, thus under the law. So being under the law cannot mean being subject to it, but being condemned by it.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh (not subject to the law of God), but after the Spirit.

So there is condemnation to them who walk after the flesh and are not subject to the law of God leading to sin and leading to death.

If you see being under the law as being obedient to God's law then Abraham was under the law. Your move Holo.

Alethes · May 29, 2008

PROPHECYKID said:
You left out one of the most important verses.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The handwriting of ordinances being abolished is what led to the statement in verse 16. Thus we need to understand what the handwriting of ordinances are. Simply put it contains the ordinances and sacrifices written by Moses hand. They contains the feast days on which to offer sacrifices which are the sabbath days apart from the 7th day Sabbath contained in the Commandment. They contain eating and drinking regulation during special feast and meat and drink offering for sacrifices. They contain high holy days where the priest would atone for the sins of the people. The handwriting of ordinances is spoken of in Hebrews.

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Jesus Christ having blotted out (Greek - wiped out) "the handwriting of ordinances" that was against us and contrary to us. This is an Eastern expression. In the East the name of the man who went bankrupt was posted at the gate of the city by the elders of that city, stating the names of his creditors and the amount of his debt. When all debts fully paid, the elders would fold over the paper (Isaiah 40:2), folding together the writ of debts so that all the debts were blotted out. (A partial payment by the bankrupt person was unacceptable.) The folded-together document would then be nailed up at the city gates so that all passing by could see that the man's debts were fully paid.

All the negatives against that man were eradicated. Jesus Christ paid in full for all our debts of sin. He fully paid for our release from the bondage of the law. He was subjected to pain, sickness, suffering and death for us. By taking these things upon himself, he "blotted out the handwriting of ordinance that was against us . . . nailing it to his cross."

Colossians 2:15 -- And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Christ uncovered the religious rulerships and authorities that use to be in control over us. He made an example and held those rulers and authorities up in public disgrace in His triumphal procession.

Colossians 2:16 -- Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

Therefore---because Christ fully paid for our release from the bondage of the law and we are completely, completely, absolutely complete in Him (Colossians 2:10), pay no regard to anyone who sits in judgment of you as to legal observances in respect to food, drink, feasts, new moon, or sabbaths. which have come to an end

Colossians 2:17 -- Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

Which are [present tense] a shadow of things to come [present, active, participle]--- these things being on the point or in the process of coming, but have not yet come to pass. The shadow is not the actual thing itself, but the body is of Christ - the one spiritual body, of which Christians are all members/limbs, belonging to Christ, Christ's body is the true substance/reality.

These things, which are a shadow, were applicable during the old covenant period looking forward to the coming of the Christ and his accomplishments, but they are not relevant to any Christian because we have the things-themselves in Christ. We Christians are Christs body spiritually.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law

Actually, these verses make it clear that the law with its yearly sacrifices, which could never make anyone coming to them perfect before God, were only a shadow of the good things ---Hebrews 10:10: "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]."

tulc · May 29, 2008

do you not believe what presents itself as "the church" is not corrupted?

No actually I don't believe its been corrupted (if by corrupted you mean they don't keep the Sabbath?) If you mean something else plz explain?

those who are truely the church even have some members who have not opened their eyes to the truth and most church practices miss the mark on the true purpose of Christ to begin with... so I'd say "church" as a building and organization and group of people is surely corrupt,

...and I wouldn't agree with you. I believe God protects His Church, I also believe most of the time when people say "The Church is Corrupted!!" (tm) they usually (not always) mean people are doing things they don't agree with, but since the Church is made up of more then one type of person, I believe it should have more then one way of doing things.

but the body of Christ as the church, is not.

I'm sorry I should have been more clear on that. When I refer to the Church the body of Christ is who I'm talking about.
tulc(drinking some very good coffee!)

tulc · May 29, 2008

Ok tulc.

Ok, I'll be sure and let holo know!
tulc(HEY HOLO! READ POST #329!!)

PROPHECYKID · May 29, 2008

You still owe me a response tulc.

tulc · May 29, 2008

You still owe me a response tulc.

I do?
tulc(do you mean holo?)

Celticflower · May 29, 2008

tulc said:
I do?
tulc(do you mean holo?)

Is somebody confusing you tulc??

Maybe another cuppa coffee will help.

PS--I know the message was supposed to go to Holo, wonder why PK doesn't???

PROPHECYKID · May 29, 2008

tulc said:
I do?
tulc(do you mean holo?)

I mixed up the names.

But if i were you i would leave it up to him to answer for real. I don't think you would want to attempt to answer that.

Just joking.

tulc · May 29, 2008

Is somebody confusing you tulc??

Some call it confusion, I call it a way of life.

Maybe another cuppa coffee will help.

Click to expand...

Another cuppa is ALWAYS called for!

PS--I know the message was supposed to go to Holo, wonder why PK doesn't???

Click to expand...

I understand it can get confusing on here!
tulc(unless I did miss a question someone asked me?)

tulc · May 29, 2008

I mixed up the names.

No problem bro!

But if i were you i would leave it up to him to answer for real. I don't think you would want to attempt to answer that.

Well knowing holo I'm sure he's up to the task.

Just joking.

tulc(LOL!)

PROPHECYKID · May 29, 2008

Celticflower said:
Is somebody confusing you tulc??

Maybe another cuppa coffee will help.

PS--I know the message was supposed to go to Holo, wonder why PK doesn't???

Tulc and Holo are 2 people that i have gotten confused with in the past because of their views on the law. Holo is more work though. They seem similar to me. But still it's my mistake.

Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

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