Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

mont974x4 · May 27, 2008

There is no longer a sabbath day in the sense pro-sabbath people present it. If anything, since the veil was torn and we are indwelt every day is a sabbath day.

I don't know about you, but I rest in Christ everyday and I endeavor to be a living sacrifice in continuous prayer...no special day required.

calluna · May 27, 2008

cyberlizard said:
It is the mock holiness of Sabbatarians that is the issue. Obviously. that is extremely judgemental.... God looks at the heart.... what are you looking at when you have been told not to judge.

The saint is told to judge, and does judge. And the solemn judgement is that the poster misrepresented.

Burdensome? One hour in 168? Come on! The shabbat lasts a whole day!

Of which an hour or so, often less, is spent doing anything different from that done on other days.

Who keeps a Mosaic sabbath? I do, as do many others

How many switch off electrical appliances, and refrain from using motorised transport?

Not even for them. this would be the eternal Torah

The word can mean 'of indefinite length'. Which is fortunate for those who have no bulls in the back garden to sacrifice.

mont974x4 · May 27, 2008

nasb
Col 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
Col 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
Col 2:21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
Col 2:22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

LittleLambofJesus · May 27, 2008

PROPHECYKID said:
Why is keeping the Sabbath religious bondage. So Jesus was in religious bondage? And mind you he did keep the Sabbath the way it was supposed to be kept. Was Jesus endorsing religious bondage when he said, Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: ?

Will God be placing us back in religious bondage in the new heavens and earth?

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

I can't see how setting apart the day that was blessed and sanctified at creation in Eden, for fellowship with God and brethren, could be a religious burden.

Hi. What is your view of the horse rider in reve 6 having a "yoke" in his hand?

Deuteronomy 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which YHWH shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

Acts 15:10 Now then any/why ye are trying the God, to put a Yoke/zugon <2218> upon the Neck of the Disciples, which neither the fathers of us neither are we are able to bear?

Reve 6:5 And when it up-opens the third seal , I hear of the third living one saying: "Be you coming"! And I am looking and I see and Behold! A horse, black and the one-sitting-down upon it/him having a Yoke/zugon <2218> in the hand of him.

mont974x4 · May 27, 2008

PROPHECYKID said:
Why is keeping the Sabbath religious bondage. So Jesus was in religious bondage? And mind you he did keep the Sabbath the way it was supposed to be kept. Was Jesus endorsing religious bondage when he said, Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: ?

Will God be placing us back in religious bondage in the new heavens and earth?

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

I can't see how setting apart the day that was blessed and sanctified at creation in Eden, for fellowship with God and brethren, could be a religious burden.

The NT church met as often as possible and fellwoshipped as often as possible....as we do. We don't need a special day or ceremony. We "have church" any day of the week and at any moment. I ahve led small services on just about any day of the week on various mountain tops around Montana with whoever I happen to be there with.

Do you know why they needed to pray that the flight wouldn't be on a sabbath? Because they didn't have enough sense to obey the spirit of law and most of them wouldn't have had the sense to leave for fear of breaking "laws".

Yes, Jewish converts did keep the sabbath but it was generally so they could be where the people were to bear witness to Christ and spread the gospel.

Celticflower · May 27, 2008

PROPHECYKID said:
Why is keeping the Sabbath religious bondage. So Jesus was in religious bondage? And mind you he did keep the Sabbath the way it was supposed to be kept.

Which is why he is condemned at one point when he healed a man on the Sabbath.

Meshavrischika · May 27, 2008

the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. making it a hindrance to life and something that involves a burden takes away from what it was created for and therefore the "death for violating it" violates the spirit of the Sabbath. i do agree that the sabbath is not what is celebrated in most church bodies now, but i think that what you've said has gone a little overboard, but we are all entitled to our thoughts and feelings so... there ya go.

PROPHECYKID · May 27, 2008

mont974x4 said:
There is no longer a sabbath day in the sense pro-sabbath people present it. If anything, since the veil was torn and we are indwelt every day is a sabbath day.

I don't know about you, but I rest in Christ everyday and I endeavor to be a living sacrifice in continuous prayer...no special day required.

Ok so if you say that the Sabbath was no longer in existence since the veil was torn then why does Jesus care about the keeping of the Sabbath years after that veil was torn when he spoke about the destruction of Jerusalem.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The veil of the temple was torn symbolizing the nullification of the priestly ministry in the earthly sanctuary and the offering of sacrifices and the keeping of the feast which go along with those sacrifices. The Sabbath was made before any of those stuff was necessary. The Sabbath has nothing to do with these things.

PROPHECYKID · May 27, 2008

mont974x4 said:
nasb
Col 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
Col 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
Col 2:21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
Col 2:22 (which all referto things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

You left out one of the most important verses.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The handwriting of ordinances being abolished is what led to the statement in verse 16. Thus we need to understand what the handwriting of ordinances are. Simply put it contains the ordinances and sacrifices written by Moses hand. They contains the feast days on which to offer sacrifices which are the sabbath days apart from the 7th day Sabbath contained in the Commandment. They contain eating and drinking regulation during special feast and meat and drink offering for sacrifices. They contain high holy days where the priest would atone for the sins of the people. The handwriting of ordinances is spoken of in Hebrews.

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Sacrifices and ordinances were offered in the law written by Moses, placed on the side of the ark. It is apart from the 10 commandments which speaks about the 7th day Sabbath. If the Sabbath is a shadow of Christ then he would not be concerned about Sabbath during the destruction of Jerusalem and there would be no need to honor the Sabbath in heaven.

PROPHECYKID · May 27, 2008

Celticflower said:
Which is why he is condemned at one point when he healed a man on the Sabbath.

Yes because the scribes and pharisees added strict rules to the Sabbath.

PROPHECYKID · May 27, 2008

Do you know why they needed to pray that the flight wouldn't be on a sabbath? Because they didn't have enough sense to obey the spirit of law and most of them wouldn't have had the sense to leave for fear of breaking "laws".

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So are you saying that the disciples would not obey the spirit of the law. If the Sabbath was to be null, Jesus would know that the disciples would realize and not be bothered. But that is not the case. The Sabbath is alive and well because it was the sabbath days added because of sacrifices and ordinances that were abolished and not the 7th day Sabbath. In a hasty attempt to respond to that question you seem not to remember or realize that Jesus was speaking to his disciples. But we all make mistakes

Yes, Jewish converts did keep the sabbath but it was generally so they could be where the people were to bear witness to Christ and spread the gospel.

History does not support that reason.

[FONT=&quot]"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." "Antiquities of the Christian Church," Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).[/FONT]

I have much more.

PROPHECYKID · May 27, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi. What is your view of the horse rider in reve 6 having a "yoke" in his hand?

Deuteronomy 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which YHWH shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

Acts 15:10 Now then any/why ye are trying the God, to put a Yoke/zugon <2218> upon the Neck of the Disciples, which neither the fathers of us neither are we are able to bear?

Reve 6:5 And when it up-opens the third seal , I hear of the third living one saying: "Be you coming"! And I am looking and I see and Behold! A horse, black and the one-sitting-down upon it/him having a Yoke/zugon <2218> in the hand of him.

To be honest I am not really certain. I do have an overall view of what those first 4 seals are all about but that's a different topic. I am eager to know why you asked. Is there some relation that you are trying to make with the current topic.

mont974x4 · May 27, 2008

PROPHECYKID said:
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So are you saying that the disciples would not obey the spirit of the law. If the Sabbath was to be null, Jesus would know that the disciples would realize and not be bothered. But that is not the case. The Sabbath is alive and well because it was the sabbath days added because of sacrifices and ordinances that were abolished and not the 7th day Sabbath. In a hasty attempt to respond to that question you seem not to remember or realize that Jesus was speaking to his disciples. But we all make mistakes

History does not support that reason.

[FONT=&quot]"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." "Antiquities of the Christian Church," Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).[/FONT]

I have much more.

The disciples were in as much danger of following the legalists as anyone else. The fact that His main audience was them does not change anything.

Don't bother, I care little for what those people have to say. What matters is what Scripture says. And it never demands the legalistic approach to the sabbath and in fact, frees us in the NT because of the work of Christ on the cross.

Now, if you want to show me a Scripture where the sabbath is commanded to me, a gentile member of the NT church, we'll talk. I have already posted a passage that shows that those that try to demand we take the legalistic approach to sabbaths and feasts and other matters of choice are wrong.

ThomasDa · May 27, 2008

Col.2 in no way does away with God's Sabbaths!

Some people turn to Paul’s writings to try to do away with God’s precious Law, but is that what Paul taught? Not even close.

Let’s look at two of the scriptures they use to teach this heresy and see if that is indeed what Paul says.

You might want to consider these things that Paul said, and ask yourself, did the man who wrote these words then; try to do away with God’s Law?

1)Ro. 8:7 Because the carnal mind (a mind without God’s Spirit) is enmity against (or is (hostile toward God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, (or because that is true) those who are in the flesh (without God’s Spirit) cannot please God.
2)Ro. 7:12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
3)Ro. 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.
4)Ro. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
5)1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
Does anyone really think, That This Paul, tried to do away with God’s Law?

Col. 2:14 is one verse people love to use to try to say that Paul did away with God’s Law. We need to understand what this verse is really talking about.
The Romans nailed two things to the cross 1) They nailed Jesus to the cross. 2) They nailed a sign stating that He was the king of the Jews to the cross. (i.e. the charge against Him) But Paul says, (figuratively) that “the handwriting of requirements that was against us” was also nailed to the cross.
This is the only place in the NT that these Greek words (handwriting of requirements) are used. This is a legal document, hand written by the criminal, stating the charges against him, (in our case the charge is that we have sinned; Ro. 3:23) and the debt that he owes. (our debt or penalty is death; Ro. 6:23.) This is what was nailed to the cross, not God’s Law. Read “Friberg Lexicon” and also “Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words” for a further explanation.

“The New Living Translation” makes it much clearer. Col. 2:14“He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to the cross.” This in no way gives us the right to start breaking God's Law again. That doesn't even make any sense. When someone is pardened, that does not free them to go out and break the law again.

Col. 2:16 is another scripture some people try to use to prove that Paul did away with God’s Law. But does it?
Col. 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival, (or feast day) or new moons or sabbaths.
What is Paul talking about here? Let’s read what he says. In verse 8 he warns us not to be fooled by the traditions of men.(not God's Law) Verses 20, 22 warn us not to be subject to the rules of this world and commandments of men.(not God's Law)

Col. 2 is actually a condemnation of acetic human philosophy. This is not a discussion of whether or not God’s laws are binding on Christians.

The church in Colosse was in the mist of a pagan gentile country. There is no question here of whether they were keeping God’s laws; rather they are being warned not to be influenced by the people around them. They are not being told to dismiss God’s Law. They were being encouraged to keep on keeping God’s Law in the mist of these worldly influences.

If one wants to dismiss God’s Law in their life they are free to do so, but they need to base it on human philosophy. They can’t use these scriptures to do it!

visionary · May 27, 2008

“The New Living Translation” makes it much clearer. Col. 2:14“He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to the cross.” This in no way gives us the right to start breaking God's Law again. That doesn't even make any sense. When aomeone is pardened, that does not free them to go out and break the law again.

You are right, this translation is very clear.

calluna · May 28, 2008

ThomasDa said:
The New Living Translation makes it much clearer. Col. 2:14He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to the cross. This in no way gives us the right to start breaking God's Law again. That doesn't even make any sense. When aomeone is pardened, that does not free them to go out and break the law again.

And yet, I never see Sabbatarians sacrificing bulls.

cyberlizard · May 28, 2008

what does Shabbat (specifically) have to do with sacrificing bulls?

Steve

calluna · May 28, 2008

cyberlizard said:
what does Shabbat (specifically) have to do with sacrificing bulls?

Steve

It's in the Bible, Old Testament section.

MamaZ · May 28, 2008

Pray it does not come on the sabbath. Well from what I understand that on the sabbath they had made it a law you could not do anything. Even Jesus was questioned for the disciples eating a grain of wheat because they picked it. They were very strict about this. So therefore Jesus is telling them pray this does not come on a sabbath. They were not allowed to do anything.

cyberlizard · May 28, 2008

calluna said:
It's in the Bible, Old Testament section.

where, I cannot find a verse that specifically links Shabbat with the necessary sacrifice of bulls.

Steve

p.s. apologies for the delay in response - every so often the keyboard on my computer locks up and i cannot type and so have to restart my computer!

Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

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