Christians And The Assurance Of Salvation

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Julie. What do you disagree with in post #9? I'm not going to argue with you, I just want to understand where you're coming from...

 

[Outspoken]

"This says GOD will never forsake US (just as Heb13:5 says).
"

No no no, the verb here is used objectivly to us. The people of God cannot repent of it, it is NOT saying that. Please read the verse and just break down the sentence.

"Wonder why?"

Ben, I've refuted ALL your verses before? Why go through it again? I'll let God handle that


"How about Romans 8?"

1. christians ALWAYS do the will of God. We are slaves (ie you don't have a choice) to righteiousness. The bible says that all the time, did you miss it?
I think you missed verse 9.Great evidience for OSAS
2. Now after you put verse 13 (the verse you mentioned but forgot to give the number ) in context you will see Paul is saying, if it even were possible to do this..blah blah...Like me saying, if I HAD wings I could do X. but the problem is I don't, nor will I ever have wings. this is Pauls writing style, he likes to smash the point home from every angle.

As for romans 10 This is in reference to the isrealits.

Romans 11 requires some extra knowledge we don't have in this current time. A vinegrower NEVER cuts off a vine if it stops producing. He usually ties it to another vine or some other process. Its been awhile since I studied that though, but I do gurentee you that this is not a non-OSAS passage if you put it in context of the wine-making process in the historical context.


"This is identical with Heb10:26---"For if we continue sinning willfully AFTER HAVING RECEIVED KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries.""

EXACTLY BEN!!! If God presents himself before you and you say no, you are left with no sacrifice because you refused God's salvation. Knowledge doesn't save ben, faith does

"AND---2Pet2:20-22; don't make the mistake of contending "the ESCAPEES were the FALSE ones"---the FALSE never cease from sin (14), slaves of corruption (19); the FALSE seek to entice the TRUE (14, 18---ONTOS-APOPHUEGO truly escaped). False prophets, false teachers, and truly escaped BELIEVERS!"

Wow, you're so bad

You're a bad man , go to your room. There ya go, perfect example.

 

[eldermike]

My words:

Two events critical to understanding this issue.
First is the Ministry of Jesus to the Jews.
Second is Paul's conversion and Ministry to the gentiles.

Jesus faced the law as an obstacle to his Ministry.
Paul faced the law but from a different perspective.
Jesus had to reveal His position in the law to the Jews.
Paul had to keep the law from becoming a similar obstacle to the gentiles.

So, we have instructions that appear to have warnings concerning our salvation that actually conflict what Jesus said, and they do conflict unless you understand that Paul was doing everything in His God given power to keep the Jews from bringing a religion into Christianity.

To be in the OSAS camp you can't read the Bible without understanding this struggle within the early church.

Jesus said to the Jews, if you believe in me, You will have eternal life.
Paul said, if you throw away what I have told you (come under the law) you cannot be saved.

You can either see this struggle, or you can't.
It's there.

We can disagree in Christian love.

 

[Outspoken]

great way to put it elder!

 

[RevKidd]

My quick take on all this

Matthew 13:20-21

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

Here are the words of Jesus himself.  This is the parable of the sower, which is recorded in Matt, Mark, Luke.  Jesus is interpreting his parable here and he says that there are those who recieve the word (seed) with Joy.  Let me ask the readers a question.  When you were a child, and your parents told you some good news, for example, they said that the family was going to Disney world or something along those lines.  As a child, would you not get excited about that?  I think 95% of children would.  Why?  Because the trusted and believed what there parents were telling them.  As a child you would get excited hearing your parents tell you that you were going to Disney World because you believed them.  The hearer of this word is a believer because he recieves is with joy and in some interpretations gladness.

Jesus said that there are those who will hear and recieve the word with joy.  Why?  Because they believed in this word that they heard.  Jesus also said it was immediately.  No contemplation, no gestation period.  Immediately. 

21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles

Here's the but.  Jesus says that they have no root.  In the NASB (a word for word translation) it says that they did not have a "firm" root.  The root, being the word that they believed is temporary or endures for a while.  Why is that?  Well Jesus says that "Tribulation and Persecution arises because of the word".  The believer is being persecuted, why, because of what they believed.  If the person had not believed, would they still have recieved tribulation or persecution.  I don't think they  would have.  As a result, they stumble, or in other translations they fall away (NASB).  What did they fall away from?  Fall off of a ladder you have climb it first. 

I think this is a good example of people who do find salvation.  I believe that they were saved.  What would happen to believer who died while he was enduring.  Was he never saved to begin with?  I think that this is an illustration that proves that a believer can lose his salvation.  That this is a good example of how believers need to get rooted in the word.  How they need to be able to give a defense of what they know, and how to rightly divide and handle the word of God.  Many Christians fall to false doctrine because they don't take it upon themselves to study the word or find someone or someplace where they can be taught the word....  So in time they fall because they are not able to defend what they believe... Doubt can start to settle in and then the enemy has planted his weed into the believer... 

 

 

 

[Julie]

Some people just do not understand God's Salvation Plan.



We are told in Romans 8:38-39 that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, and the Lord tells us in Hebrews 13:5 that He will NEVER leave us or forsake us. Eternal Life is a PRESENT POSSESSION for the Christian.

If you've received Jesus Christ as your Savior, then you HAVE eternal life.

You will not go to Hell, for you have been saved by believing on the record that God gave of His Son (I John 5:11-13, .).

If you have received Christ as your Savior, then you have received eternal life, because Jesus Christ IS eternal life (John 14:6; Col. 3:4; Rom. 6:23).

He placed His Spirit within you to keep you and to preserve you (John 14:16-17; II Cor. 1:22); so you should be REJOICING in Christ, not WORRYING about losing Him!

 

[Ben johnson]

No no no, the verb here is used objectivly to us. The people of God cannot repent of it, it is NOT saying that. Please read the verse and just break down the sentence.

Only the giver can repent of a gift. But we are promised God is forever faithful. What of OUR faithfulness? Are we promised that? No.

"For if we died with Him we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall reign with Him; If we DENY Him, He will deny Us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2Tim2:11-13 What do you think Paul is conveying here? That no matter what we DO nor how FAITHLESS we are He will keep us SAVED??? Do you really believe that a FAITHLESS PERSON has any part in Heaven? Or do you believe that Paul is just "spouting", engaging in HYPERBOLE (exageration for EFFECT but not to be taken LITERALLY)? What if we simply read the words as they were written? "If we endure, we shall reign with Him (He who endures to the end shall be saved). BUT, if we DENY Him, He will deny US (Confess me before men and I will confess you before My Father; DENY Me, and I will DENY YOU before My Father---Matt10:32-33)---and we will NOT REIGN; If we are FAITHLES, though we PERISH yet He remains forever faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

Ya gotta make a choice about this (and so many other passages):
1. We can be FAITHLESS and DENY HIM but still go to Heaven
2. This is EMPTY BUGBEAR WARNING, hyperbole---don't believe it
3. It's a sincere warning---that's why he labored to write it---in SPITE of his poor vision and the effort...

Did Paul believe in OSAS? No...

EXACTLY BEN!!! If God presents himself before you and you say no, you are left with no sacrifice because you refused God's salvation. Knowledge doesn't save ben, faith does...

Actually, Outspoken, the passage says, "If ...after having RECEIVED KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"---please read Heb10:29, 35 (our CONFIDENCE is JESUS---Heb10:19, 6:19-20---do not throw away JESUS!)---do you really think Hebrews' writer supported OSAS? No...

Wow, you're so bad

You're a bad man , go to your room. There ya go, perfect example.

You've lost me. Take the three choices above, and apply them to 2Pet2:20-22---which one fits? Do they "again become entangled in the defilements and overcome, worse than BEFORE they were saved", but still go to Heaven? Or is this just a meaningless warning about THAT WHICH CANNOT HAPPEN ("hyperbole")? Or is it a real warning? (You can't argue that "they were NEVER SAVED"---it uses the EXACT SAME WORDS as chapter 2---the ch2 people are described word-for-word as the ch1 SAVED). Which applies? 1, 2, or 3? Did Peter hold to OSAS? No.

He placed His Spirit within you to keep you and to preserve you (John 14:16-17; II Cor. 1:22); so you should be REJOICING in Christ, not WORRYING about losing Him!

There is no worry---"Perfect love casts out fear" (1Jn4). BUT---He placed His Spirit IN us, because of BELIEF (Eph1:13); do we have a choice to CONTINUE to believe? We just read 2Tim2:11-13---how about what Jude said in verse 21? "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiousy for the mercy of Jesus TO ETERNAL LIFE!" Did JUDE hold to "OSAS"? No.

None of them believed it---see James5:19-20. If none of them did, how can we?

Jesus said to the Jews, if you believe in me, You will have eternal life.
Paul said, if you throw away what I have told you (come under the law) you cannot be saved.

You can either see this struggle, or you can't.
It's there.

Yes the struggle is there---but Paul doesn't say "you can never BE saved in the FIRST PLACE---Paul very clearly says, "Keep standing firm and do not RETURN to a yoke of slavery; if you seek to be justified by law, you are SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you are FALLEN FROM GRACE." Ga5:1-4 Doesn't one first need to BELONG, BEFORE he can be SEVERED? Can't only the SAVED, become FALLEN FROM GRACE? You cannot fall from that which you never had...

We can disagree in Christian love.

Yes we can. If we both ("OSAS" and "OSNAS") agree on the FOUNDATIONS of salvation, IE it being FELLOWSHIP with CHRIST, changed hearts, "BORN AGAIN"---then we can fellowship in PERFECT LOVE AND HARMONY...

You will not go to Hell, for you have been saved by believing on the record that God gave of His Son (I John 5:11-13, .).

Exactly---salvation is by belief, by RECEIVING CHRIST. Now please read 2Jn1:7-9: "Many deceivers have gone into the world; ...watch yourselves, that you not lose what you have accomplished, but may receive full reward ('Reward of the INHERITANCE'---Col3:24); anyone who GOES TOO FAR and does not ABIDE in the teaching of Christ, HAS NOT GOD!" Lay aside your anger, your argument, your theory---and simply tell me which number did John intend here? !, 2, or 3? Did John intend that "you can go too far and HAVE NOT GOD, but still be SAVED"? Did John mean "this is MEANINGLESS 'cause you CAN'T go too far"? Or did he mean it as a sincere warning? Or is there a FOURTH possibility, maybe he was talking to UNSAVED? Why then "watch yourselves that you not go too far"? Would that make sense?

Which number? 1, 2, or 3? Did John believe in "OSAS"?

 

[Outspoken]

"Only the giver can repent of a gift."

noooooo. I can say, here I dont' want it, that's repenting of a gift. You're simply not reading the text.

"if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself"

He means that even when we loose faith, he keeps us, ie OSAS a christian doesn't deny christ, though he does sin.


"1. We can be FAITHLESS and DENY HIM but still go to Heaven"

I choose this, but you have a few things wrong according to context. 1. its only faithless 2. God is the founder of faith, thus its talking in an us way, as in on our own, ie we get trampled working on our own power. Thus when we fail, christ still accepts us and we are still saved.


"Actually, Outspoken, the passage says, "If ...after having RECEIVED KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"---please read Heb10:29, 35 (our CONFIDENCE is JESUS---Heb10:19, 6:19-20---do not throw away JESUS!)---do you really think Hebrews' writer supported OSAS? No..."

Yes i do. he fully supported it. As the knowlege issue, faith saves, that we can be sure of biblically, knowledge does not. If I know about a great deal but don't take it, it profits me NOTHING.


"You've lost me. "

an example of a word used in the opposite way. that's what you said couldn't happen, yet it doesn't disproving your point.

The rest of the quotes aren't from me so I won't answer them

 

[Ben johnson]

He means that even when we loose faith, he keeps us, ie OSAS a christian doesn't deny christ, though he does sin.

I read it to be contrasting only TWO views:

1. We died with Him, live with Him, endure, we reign.
2. We deny Him, He denies us, we are faithless.

Thus I equate the "deny Him" with "faithless". Do you see more than two views???

I choose this, but you have a few things wrong according to context. 1. its only faithless 2. God is the founder of faith, thus its talking in an us way, as in on our own, ie we get trampled working on our own power. Thus when we fail, christ still accepts us and we are still saved.

Ah----you choose "DOOR #2". Are you CERTAIN that you wouldn't rather trade it for the box that Carol Merril is now holding???

Where does Scripture say, "God is the FOUNDER of faith"? Paul seems to say, in Rom10 (esp vs 9,10,17) that "faith comes from US." In Hebrews 12:2, perhaps the closest verse that I can find to "Him/founder", it says: "Fixing our eyes upon Jesus, the ARCHEGOS-LEADER (Prince) and TELEIOTES-PERFECTER-BY-EXAMPLE of faith." I just don't see anywhere that says, "God INSTALLS saving-faith IN us"...

As the knowlege issue, faith saves, that we can be sure of biblically, knowledge does not.

True---but certain words convey more than mere knowledge. The verse that "piqued" the local Baptist minister, was 2Pet2:20. "EPIGNOSIS"---it's not any ordinary knowledge. It implies, EXPERIENCE. As a Greek expert told me, "Epignosis can NEVER mean mere head-knowledge---it is experiential, SAVED knowledege." And this is what the Baptist minister also saw in the Greek, when he said: "The pain of being an honest man, it DOES say full knowledge..." (He then admonished me to not sew dissention in his flock---which of course was NEVER my intention, but it was an EXCELLENT admonishment---we are to LOVE, not DIVIDE!)

I don't believe you can correctly understand "escaped corruption by the full true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" in 2Pet1, but then also understand "escaped defilements by the full true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" in chapter 2 as UNSAVED. Same exact words, but not the same exact meaning?

 

[Outspoken]

"I read it to be contrasting only TWO views"

Nope, it is saying 2 very different things. 1. if we disown him, he will disown us I read it to be contrasting only TWO views:
1. we deny christ he denies us..this is no secret, reject the gift and you are rejected

720 arneomai {ar-neh'-om-ahee}

perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and the middle voice of
4483; TDNT - 1:469,79; v

AV - deny 29, refuse 2; 31

1) to deny
2) to deny someone
2a) to deny one's self
2a1) to disregard his own interests or to prove false to himself
2a2) act entirely unlike himself
3) to deny, abnegate, abjure
4) not to accept, to reject, to refuse something offered

2. we loose faith, he remains faithful...here we see how OSAS works, he holds us up even when we fail.

"Do you see more than two views???"

You shouldn't equate them, they aren't this equals this formula. Look at the text.

"Where does Scripture say, "God is the FOUNDER of faith"?"

Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


I just don't see anywhere that says, "God INSTALLS saving-faith IN us"...

Actually in this context I would say the definition of "author" is more approprate then leader. He is the beginning and end of it, that's what the verse is saying.

"It implies, EXPERIENCE."

YOu misunderstand, you can experience God at that point in your life, you are confronted with the choice to accept him or reject him, that's exactly what its talking about, but at no time are you a "christian" during this experience.

"Same exact words, but not the same exact meaning?"

*sigh* I showed you this already with my example of the word bad. A word can mean 2 opposite things.

 

[Ben johnson]

Nope, it is saying 2 very different things. 1. if we disown him, he will disown us I read it to be contrasting only TWO views:
1. we deny christ he denies us..this is no secret, reject the gift and you are rejected

Shasbat!* We agree! I didn't think we did...

2. we loose faith, he remains faithful...here we see how OSAS works, he holds us up even when we fail.

I can't see how "losing faith" and "denying Him" can be two separate things. You seem to be saying, "the FAITHLESS shall enter HEAVEN"---how then does that accomodate, "For by grace through faith are you saved"? As for "EQUATING TERMS", there are MANY descriptions of salvation:

1. Believing in Christ
2. Receiving Christ
3. Baptism (immersion) in the Holy Spirit
4. Baptism (immersion) in Christ (not water)
5. Born Again
6. Dead to sin, alive in Christ---new creation, old sinful self crucified
7. Doing God's will
8. Humbled as a child
9. Repentant
10. Fellowship with Christ and God
11. Abiding in Christ
12. Walking in the Spirit
13. Washed in His blood, forgiven of our iniquity
14. Sanctified
15. Justified
16. Predestined towards Christlikeness

Each SAVED PERSON will fit EACH AND EVERY ONE of these. I also equate "BELIEF" with "FAITH-TO-SALVATION"---thus, in Eph2:8, "by grace have you been saved through faith", it is IDENTICAL to John3, "believe and be saved".

THUS---salvation is by belief---so then you are saying "there is a salvation with BELIEFLESSNESS (faithlessness)! This is what I cannot understand. How can 2Tim2:11-13, mean "deny" is different from "faithless"? I submit, that it is our FAITHLESSNESS that would CAUSE Him to deny us! What else could cause it?

Paul often uses the alegory of "RACING". This passage is no different---2Tim2 presents salvation as being a race! The PRIZE, being salvation! Paul seems worried about his own perseverence in salvation in passages like 1Cor9:27. In Gal5, Paul writes: "You were RUNNING WELL---but in seeking to RETURN to the Law, seeking to be subject again to a yoke of slavery, you are SEVERED from Christ, you are FALLEN FROM GRACE! " I see this as very much a real warning. "Run the race so as to win the prize". Which is why I also take passages such as Col1:23 (...to present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach before God, IF INDEED you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT BE MOVED AWAY from the Hope of the gospel") ---this to mean, "don't be moved away from Jesus". As Jude said, "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God." I can't see how all of these verses, together, can be understood to mean, "Oh GOD will persevere YOU." How 'bout 2Pet1:5-11? Do you see any of GOD persevering THEM? Or does Peter command US to persevere OURSELVES?

Sorry, when I look at the text, I see "FAITHLESSNESS will cause HIM to deny US before GOD"...

Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Yes, but keep reading: "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, IN ORDER to be sincere and blameless for the day of Christ..." Sincere and blameless? Isn't this saying exactly the same thing as the verse we just read, Col1:23??? Just after the verse you used to support PREDESTINATION (vs6), Paul prays for us to ABIDE IN SALVATION! (vs9) "That your love abound ...to be sincere and blameless for the day of Christ!"

I do not think Paul's bold confidence (that He who BEGAN the work will complete it), contradicts Paul's OTHER assertions that it only WILL complete BY and THROUGH our own FAITH!

...yet you believe a faithless one can happily go to Heaven. I dun't unnerstand...

Actually in this context I would say the definition of "author" is more approprate then leader. He is the beginning and end of it, that's what the verse is saying.

"Archegos" means what it means. It means AUTHOR to you (and I say this most respectfully, please always understand my love for you and all my brothers) ...because it needs to, to be in support of "OSAS". ALL of the WARNINGS are changed to "hyperbole" (to support "Predestined-Election"), all references to OUR OWN FAITH somehow get changed to "THE FAITH HE IMPOSED on us!"

How do you accomodate 1Tim4:16? Is Paul calling for US to persevere, of for GOD to persevere US?

YOu misunderstand, you can experience God at that point in your life, you are confronted with the choice to accept him or reject him, that's exactly what its talking about, but at no time are you a "christian" during this experience.

"Same exact words, but not the same exact meaning?"

OK, I do not have a doctorate in Greek. But I have talked with those who HAVE---and the opinion is unanimous among them---epignosis of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can NEVER mean "squatters"---only SHALLOW but UNSAVED knowledge. Besides, there are those two identical considerations, SAME LETTER---separated only by a few paragraphs; the FIRST description (ch1) includes "of the same faith as us"---undeniably as saved as Peter. The SECOND description (ch2), word for word the SAME (except "defilements" replaces "corruption")---but you assign DIFFERENT MEANING? Do you see why I say "your understanding is because you NEED it to support 'OSAS' "? Not meaning to be insulting nor insensitive, what-you-say just seems to me to be "Scripture bending to fit preconception", rather than "conceptions molded to fit Scripture."

*sigh* I showed you this already with my example of the word bad. A word can mean 2 opposite things.

But we cannot infer this whenever we WANT it to mean what WE want it to! Just as in Rom5:18, the two identical "ALL MEN" must be reinterpreted for the SECOND to mean "Oh not ALL but only SOME"! Conception bending for Scripture? Or Scripture bending for preconception?

It's very much the same, as when people try to paint Heb6:4-6 people as "SQUATTERS but UNSAVED!" Really, the "PARTAKERS of the Holy Spirit" soundly refutes that. The word, is "METOCHOS"---and it does mean FULL PARTNER---not "superficial visitor!"

Heb3:1 "METOCHOS-PARTNERS of a heavenly calling!"
Heb3:14 "METOCHOS-PARTNERS of Christ!"
Heb6:4 "METOCHOS-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit!"

There's just no way to honestly paint them as "NEVER SAVED"! Besides, Heb3:14 continues to say, "_IF_ we hold fast the beginning or our assurance firm until the end!" (Verse 4:1: "Let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any of you should seem to have COME SHORT of it!")

I think the warnings are real, not empty.

I think saving-faith is from us towards God, not from God towards us.

I think perseverence, steadfastness, endurance, is from us towards God, not from God towards us.

"For by grace through OUR faith are we saved"...

(Rats---Ben posted another long one!!!)



---------------------------------------------------
* "Shasbat" is a nonsensical expletive, invented for the show, "Mork and Mindy"...

 

[FOMWatts<><]

I can't see how denying God can be the same as losing faith. Losing faith doesn't necessarily mean ALL faith, it may be a time of temptation and doubting for a Christian...whereas denying God is saying "Hey I don't even believe in a god!"

I do however strongly AGREE with Ben on the idea of changing the meaning WHEN WE WANT. This is so common among religions today and is talked about often in the description of the end of times. When we turn to hear what WE WANT TO HEAR, it becomes a hindrance to all that listen. We must take God's Word at face value. It is a hidden language for the Elect of God to interpret personally and God does NOT hide meaning form His children. He presents the Truth plainly.

We can not be snatched form God's grip. That's all I really had to say, LOL!

FOMWatts<><

 

[Outspoken]

"Shasbat!* We agree! I didn't think we did..."

Yup, though christians, will not and cannot deny God nor christ.

"I can't see how "losing faith" and "denying Him" can be two separate things."

They are

"You seem to be saying, "the FAITHLESS shall enter HEAVEN"

Yup, if you mean faith is of ourselves. That's what that verse is refering to, when you run out of steam, christ is always steam driven We will loose faith, but God is forever faithful and gives us more.

""there is a salvation with BELIEFLESSNESS (faithlessness)! "

Again, you're missing the context. I would say yes to this question in the context of the verses discussed. Our self-produced faith is worthless and that I think it what those verses hit on, it is all God. Its God produced faith that doesn't fail and leads you to salvation, not human produced, for it will fail.

"" Sincere and blameless? Isn't this saying exactly the same thing as the verse we just read, Col1:23???"

Nope, its not, two very different contextes.

"How do you accomodate 1Tim4:16? Is Paul calling for US to persevere, of for GOD to persevere US?
"

1 diferent book, different context, 2 He is refering to sanctifcation, not salvation He is talking about developing his gifts of the spirit (vs 14) thus we can clearly conclude it is not a salvation question, its about sancatification.

"what-you-say just seems to me to be "Scripture bending to fit preconception", rather than "conceptions molded to fit Scripture." "

Not at all, through out scripture you can see people confronted with the knowledge that saves, yet they turn away because they don't want to be saved, just like I explained in my last post.

"But we cannot infer this whenever we WANT it to mean what WE want it to! "

Exactly, that's why I showed you the context to show my interpratation is right.

"I think the warnings are real, not empty.
"

i agree, but they are warnings ment to keep you on the path, not to say they can be realized. Just like your parents warn you, don't cut off your leg, or don't stab yourself with a knife.

""For by grace through OUR faith are we saved"..."

Nope, that's YOUR word, not God's, its For grace by faith, WHICH IS A GIFT OF GOD (ie the faith and the grace). OSAS because you have no part in it ben, that's the logical biblical conclusion.

 

[Ben johnson]

but they are warnings ment to keep you on the path, not to say they can be realized.

Help me to understand, how a warning that we KNOW is powerless and worthless, can "keep us on the path"? And if the writer knew that the OTHERS knew the warnings were useless, would they have been written in the first place?

 

[Outspoken]

"Help me to understand, how a warning that we KNOW is powerless and worthless, can "keep us on the path"?"

I don't think you can be perfect either, but christ did say be perfect.

 

[Jephunneh]

Originally posted by Job_38
Can Christians lose their salvation? Now that's an important question. Can I be sure that I'm really saved?
Most Christians have probably had moments of doubt about their salvation. After all, we've all entertained thoughts and have committed acts that we knew were displeasing to God. We've all experienced that sense of remorse and sometimes questioned the reality of our salvation afterwards. Backsliding can no doubt cause such feelings to arise, and should hopefully move us to repentance (1 John 1:9).
However, when it comes to the issue of eternal security, the Bible makes it absolutely clear that those who have been saved will never be lost. Jesus emphatically pointed this out in the Gospel of John when, in reference to believers, He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28). In this passage, Christ explicitly declared that no one who has received eternal life will ever lose it.
Furthermore, in such passages as 2 Corinthians 1:22, and Ephesians 1:13, the apostle Paul indicated that the Holy Spirit acts as the very seal of God's ownership of the believer; He serves as the guarantee of our inheritance to come - namely, eternal life (John 5:24; 1 John 5:13). In describing our inheritance the apostle Peter used some very powerful words - words like "imperishable," "undefiled," and "unfading" (1 Pet. 1:5). With these words He underscored the everlasting assurance believers have with respect to God's gift of salvation.
Now I know what you're asking: "What about the Christians who have completely abandoned their faith?" Well, judging by what we're told in Scripture we can only conclude that they were never saved from the start. You see, while "once saved, always saved" is true from God's perspective, man only looks at the outward appearance and thus cannot always accurately assess who is really saved in the first place. The question therefore is not whether someone lost their salvation, but whether they had ever had it at all. As Romans chapter eight says, "there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (v. 28-29). He is the very source of our salvation.
And remember, eternal life that comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life. It begins at the moment of conversion and stretches on through the eons of time.

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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand

2 Corinthians 1
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 5
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 Peter 1
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Ben johnson]

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THAT'S the one I was looking for to post in the other thread!!!

Question---does God keep us by the faith He INSTALLS IN US? Or does He keep us by our OWN faith? If it's the latter, then what happens if we become faithless? (As I quoted on the other thread, 2Tim2:11-13 addresses this...)

 

[Jephunneh]

????????????????????????
He means what He says and says what He means.

The POWER of GOD keeps a child of God. WE have nothing to do with keeping ourself saved.
1 Peter 1
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Corinthians 1
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

 

[Outspoken]

"does God keep us by the faith He INSTALLS IN US? "

Our faith is a gift of God, so I'm guessing he does

 

[Ben johnson]

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Our faith is a gift of God, so I'm guessing he does

"SAVING FAITH", and "SAVING BELIEF" are identical and interchangeable. Please show me a verse, any verse, that says "SAVING FAITH" or "SAVING BELIEF" is imposed by God?

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

The Greek for "EARNEST", is "ARRHABON". What does "arrhabon" mean?

OUR SALVATION, according to Eph2:8-9, is:
1. By grace
2. Through faith
3. Not of ourselves
4. Gift of God
5. Not resulting from works

It is not of ourselves---it is entirely of CHRIST---on the Cross, perfect sacrifice, sufficient and complete. Yet it must be RECEIVED (which is to say, "receive CHRIST").

Rom5:17: "For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more those WHO RECEIVE the abundance of grace AND WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness will reign thorugh the One, JESUS CHRIST."

Jn1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED CHRIST, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

If FAITH-TO-SALVATION is BESTOWED, unilaterally by God, then GOD receives Christ FOR US! And Eph2:8 becomes, "For by grace through grace have you been saved!

Faith that is IMPOSED, is but a second dispensation of Grace. "BY GRACE THROUGH GRACE have you been saved." But Paul says in Rom10, "For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvaiton."

So I ask again, please show me a verse, any verse, that says "SAVING FAITH" or "SAVING BELIEF" is imposed by God?