• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Christians And The Assurance Of Salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Job_38, Sep 1, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Job_38

    Job_38 <font size="1"> In perfect orbit they have circled

    +1
    Can Christians lose their salvation? Now that's an important question. Can I be sure that I'm really saved?
    Most Christians have probably had moments of doubt about their salvation. After all, we've all entertained thoughts and have committed acts that we knew were displeasing to God. We've all experienced that sense of remorse and sometimes questioned the reality of our salvation afterwards. Backsliding can no doubt cause such feelings to arise, and should hopefully move us to repentance (1 John 1:9).
    However, when it comes to the issue of eternal security, the Bible makes it absolutely clear that those who have been saved will never be lost. Jesus emphatically pointed this out in the Gospel of John when, in reference to believers, He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28). In this passage, Christ explicitly declared that no one who has received eternal life will ever lose it.
    Furthermore, in such passages as 2 Corinthians 1:22, and Ephesians 1:13, the apostle Paul indicated that the Holy Spirit acts as the very seal of God's ownership of the believer; He serves as the guarantee of our inheritance to come - namely, eternal life (John 5:24; 1 John 5:13). In describing our inheritance the apostle Peter used some very powerful words - words like "imperishable," "undefiled," and "unfading" (1 Pet. 1:5). With these words He underscored the everlasting assurance believers have with respect to God's gift of salvation.
    Now I know what you're asking: "What about the Christians who have completely abandoned their faith?" Well, judging by what we're told in Scripture we can only conclude that they were never saved from the start. You see, while "once saved, always saved" is true from God's perspective, man only looks at the outward appearance and thus cannot always accurately assess who is really saved in the first place. The question therefore is not whether someone lost their salvation, but whether they had ever had it at all. As Romans chapter eight says, "there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (v. 38-29). He is the very source of our salvation.
    And remember, eternal life that comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life. It begins at the moment of conversion and stretches on through the eons of time.

    &nbsp;

    more articles can be found at http://www.equip.org
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    OKAY JOB, am in full agreement here. yet this topic/debate still goes on! I'm sure someone here will object sooner or later *LOL :)
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Rather than posting "objections", let's see if Scripture supports:

    Backsliding can no doubt cause such feelings to arise, and should hopefully move us to repentance (1 John 1:9).
    HOPEFULLY? Can an unrepentant man be saved? Luke 13:3

    "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28)
    "SNATCH", is "HARPAZO", "seize-or-remove-FORCIBLY"&nbsp;(the exact same word as "rapture" in 1Thess4). Does this contradict the possibility of being "deceived by sin to falling away from the living God" (Heb3:12-14---"we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance {Jesus!} firm until the end")

    Furthermore, in such passages as 2 Corinthians 1:22, and Ephesians 1:13, the apostle Paul indicated that the Holy Spirit acts as the very seal of God's ownership of the believer;
    Rom10: "Faith-unto-salvation comes from HEARING the Word of God (not from a unilateral bestowal); for with the HEART man BELIEVES to righteousness and confesses with mouth to salvation."

    Eph1:13 "In Him, you also, after LISTENING to the message of truth (faith comes from hearing), ...having believed (voluntary), you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." Promise, not guarantee. Where in Scripture is "guarantee"?

    "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by which you were sealed for the day of redemption." ("for"---"EIS", unTO, not unTIL)
    If we GRIEVE Him, are we still saved? Does He abide grieven?

    He serves as the guarantee of our inheritance to come - namely, eternal life (John 5:24; 1 John 5:13).
    Excellent! 1Jn5:12-13: "He who HAS the Son, has the life; he who has NOT the Son of God has not the life".
    "Many deceivers have gone into the world. WATCH YOURSELVES that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you receive full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Chist, has not God; but he who abides, has both Father and Son." 2Jn1:7-9

    In describing our inheritance the apostle Peter used some very powerful words - words like "imperishable," "undefiled," and "unfading" (1 Pet. 1:5)
    If we reject the Gospel and perish, will not that "INHERITANCE", still remain---but without us?

    Ever read 1Pet1:9-11?

    Well, judging by what we're told in Scripture we can only conclude that they were never saved from the start.
    What about 2Pet2:20-22? They WERE "escaped from the defilements of the world, through the TRUE-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus; but they became again entangled and overcome; they TURNED AWAY FROM the holy commandment."

    2Pet1 uses the same exact words, "apopheugo-escaped corruption/defilements", "epignosis-true-saved-knowledge", as chapter 2. Those in chapter 1 are SAVED---"of the same faith as PETER {verse1})". How are those in chapter 2 NEVER saved in the FIRST place? How can one who is never saved, "epistrepho-ek-TURN-AWAY-FROM the holy commandment?"

    "there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (v. 38-29)
    Romans 5:8 tells us He loved us before we were saved, while we were lost; if He desires ALL to be saved (2Pet3:9, 1Tim2:4), does He not still love, in a sense, everyone who perishes?

    It begins at the moment of conversion and stretches on through the eons of time.
    Yes; "IF indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not be moved away from (Jesus)." Col1:21-23

    I do not "object", only challenge you with Scripture...

    ;)
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Luke 13:3 "

    Well I'll just focus on one instead of jumping all around. This statement is made in reference to people sinning worse then others. This is talking about repenting of your sins, which all people that believe OSAS says you do. What we talk about on this issue is the grace of God. It covers all sin. If it doesn't then Christ's sacrifice was not all encompassing as scripture says it is.
     
  5. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
    +0
    Messianic


    Yes.

    You better believe it.

    You most know what your saved from first, then you can chose to continue in that salvation or leave that salvation. Its a choice.
     
  6. \o/

    \o/ Member

    153
    +0
  7. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +4
    Christian
    Ben,
    Romans 5
    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    This Verse does not say or inply that God " tells us He loved us before we were saved, while we were lost", No Way.


    Why does one have to run to the Greek to try to twist the Scriptures? You make the Bible harder to understand than it is.
     
  8. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    RO 14: 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.

    I am convinced that I could explain every passage used to object to OSAS doctrine. However, it might just be that my being convinced is the key to the whole issue.

    If you are convinced otherwise then, perhaps, for you it's so.
    Our relationship with God is a personal one, I can't bear your cross and you can't bear mine.

    Blessings from a OSAS, totally convinced brother in Christ

    Blessings
     
  9. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Hi, Julie! :)

    Rather than discuss the differences between what we believe, let's see where we have commonality.

    I believe that salvation is by belief*, by receiving Christ as our personal Lord ("Master"!) and Savior. That the old person dies, and the new one is born. That we are to abide in Him, walk in Him, crucifying the old person daily by His presence in our hearts. I believe we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit, as Eph5:18 says; that the Holy Spirit indwells us, along with the Son; that each of us has spiritual gifts, which may (or may not) include speaking in tongues, prophesying, teaching, faith, healing, and the like.

    * The terms, "faith-unto-salvation" and "belief" I understand to be identical and interchangeable; thus, "For by grace have you been saved through faith" is exactly identical to, "this is the WILL ('Thelema', desire) of God, that whoever beholds the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life."

    I am accused of holding to "Lordship Salvation", which is the belief that Jesus must be our LORD and Master. It is not enough to merely have HEAD-KNOWLEDGE of Christ, He commands a changed heart---"BORN AGAIN". "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as LORD, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." It is not enough to merely have HEAD-KNOWLEDGE of Christ, He commands a changed heart---"BORN AGAIN". "If anyone be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed (is passing) away, behold, new things have come."

    Do we agree on this?

    :)
     
  10. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "http://www.equip.org"

    GREAT website!!!

    "Rather than discuss the differences between what we believe, let's see where we have commonality"

    GREAT IDEA!! One major thing is that we both believe you should still do as Christ and Paul and pretty much all of the NT writers say...example found in Romans 6:15 "What then, Shall we sin because we are not under thw law but under grace? By no means!"
     
  11. I can eat 50 eggs

    I can eat 50 eggs what we have here is a failure to communicate

    +16
    Christian
    Hebrews 6, Read it, and if you believe in that OSAS stuff, explain how someone can recieve the Holy Spirit and not be saved.
     
  12. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "Hebrews 6, Read it, and if you believe in that OSAS stuff, explain how someone can recieve the Holy Spirit and not be saved.
    "

    Okay, they were never saved. People have tasted God and turned away. There are many examples of that. I would say they were never saved in the first place. They were on the "edge", God spoke to them, they almost gave Christ their life, but for some reason or another they turned away, thus not making the choice. Land (people) who are christians cannot produce throns and thistles (bad works). Its not possible :) read romans.
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Heb3:1: "PARTNERS in a heavenly calling"; 3:14, "Partners in Christ"; 6:4, "Partners of the Holy Spirit"---in each verse the word is, "METOCHOS---partners". Is there any way the three "PARTNERSHIPS" are not connected? Is it possible to be PARTNERED with the HOLY SPIRIT,. but not be SAVED?

    Is it?
    Chapter and verse? How about Romans 8? "
     
  14. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Heb3:1: "PARTNERS in a heavenly calling"; 3:14, "Partners in Christ"; 6:4, "Partners of the Holy Spirit"---in each verse the word is, "METOCHOS---partners". Is there any way that the three "PARTNERSHIPS" are not connected? Is it possible to be PARTNERED with the HOLY SPIRIT,. but not be SAVED?

    Is it?
    Chapter and verse? How about Romans 8? "So then, brethren---we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh---for if you DO you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. "

    Maybe Romans 10? "WHOEVER will call on the name of the Lord will be saved. HOWEVER, they did not all head the gospel. ...So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

    How about Romans 11? "Do not be arrogant toward the branches. They were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness---IF YOU CONTINUE in His kindness, OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF! And they also, if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."
    Where in Romans do you see, "OSAS"?

    ;)
     
  15. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers and non-believers, not so much to the Gentile church, although Gentile Christians can benefit greatly by reading the book. Contrast this book to Paul's epistles to the churches and the difference is quite clear.

    The Jews were deeply entrenched in the laws, customs and sacrifices of Judaism. That is why Hebrews focuses on the fact that Jesus is the final sacrifice and the High Priest of high priests, and that He supersedes Moses, Abraham and all the other heroes of faith mentioned in the Old Testament (Hebrews 12:2).

    Mainly out of spiritual blindness, the Jews had failed to recognise Jesus as the Messiah. They rejected His message of salvation by grace and crucified Him.

    Now, after knowing better -- having "been enlightened", having had the gospel explained to them via the Apostles, having seen miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit in Acts -- if they continue to reject Christ, they are in a sense putting Jesus back on the cross -- "crucifying the Son of God all over again".

    In fact, in chapter 2, the author already gives them this warning:

    Hebrews 2:3
    3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?


    Is it possible that persons "who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age" can be non-believers?

    Yes. Judas Iscariot was one such person. He had been with Jesus for about three years, sat under His teaching and even seen the power Jesus demonstrated through the Holy Spirit. Yet, Judas was not a believer. He never addressed Jesus as "Lord". You cannot find it in the Bible. Judas had only addressed Jesus as "Master" (Matthew 26:25).

    Similarly, today, there are many people who have "tasted" Jesus and the gospel, seen miracles performed right in front of them or even on them, and yet turned away from God. They are the "land" that has been rained on, yet does not produce any crop but thorns and thistles only (verse 8).

    Note also that the verse only says "enlightened", "tasted" and "shared". These are not words the Bible associates with being saved. We know that salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). We don't get saved by being "enlightened", by "tasting" or by "sharing". All that is good but we must still believe in our hearts and confess Jesus as our Lord and righteousness (Romans 10:9).

    Finally, let's not forget to read verses 9 and 10 as well.

    9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation.

    10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.


    Here, the writer suddenly shifts his focus to the "beloved", as opposed to those who have tasted and rejected Christ. He tells them that although he has said those negative things (verses 4 to 6, 8), he is confident of better things in their case, "things that accompany salvation", not condemnation. He goes on to assure them that God is not unrighteous to forget their works of love done in the name of Jesus.

    Again, these two verses show that there are two cases being addressed in the entire passage: those who reject Christ after hearing the gospel (Hebrews 2:3) and those who are already saved. So, any Christian who feels afraid after reading verses 4 to 6 and 8 because he thinks that they address believers, should read verses 9 and 10 as well to know that the latter verses are not referring to Christians.
     
  16. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "PARTNERED with the HOLY SPIRIT,. but not be SAVED?"

    Yup, nonbelievers can turn the Holy Spirit away after "tasting" of God. People in the OT did it all the time. I see God and its too much for me so I turn away and reject him.

    "Chapter and verse? How about Romans 8?"

    romans 11:29 :)

    "Where in Romans do you see, "OSAS"?"

    All over the place. the problem is you have proof-texted your way out of context of the passages in the examples you gave.
     
  17. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    "For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable"
    IRREVOCABLE---"ametameletos"---unregretted, unrepented. This says GOD will never forsake US (just as Heb13:5 says).

    Rather than commenting, shall we read a Scripture?
    ""For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us (Jn10:32-33); if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2Tim2:11-13

    If we endure, we shall reign; but if we deny Him HE WILL DENY US---and we shall NOT reign! If we are faithless, yet He remains faithful---though we PERISH! (Or are you prepared to contend that the FAITHLESS can inherit HEAVEN???)
    I constrained myself to Romans, because you said "read Romans". I noticed you did not deal with the OTHER verses from chapter 11? Wonder why?

    I have a LONG LIST of verses that cannot be accomodated in "OSAS". Shall I post them?

    Sorry, guys, you cannot be "metochos-partners with the Holy Spirit but still be REPROBATE!The Greek word doesn't allow the "superficial-squatter-concept"---they were fully saved.

    Besides, the STRUCTURE of Heb6:4ff, says: "For those who (were TRULY saved), but are falling away (aorist of "parapiptos"), it is adunatos-powerless-unable to restore them to repentance. What is the reason?

    KJV---SEEING AS they crucify Christ anew to themselves, and hold Him to shame.
    NIV---BECAUSE they crucify...
    NAS---SINCE they crucify...
    NAS-(FOOTNOTE)---WHILE they crucify Christ anew to themselves...

    This is identical with Heb10:26---"For if we continue sinning willfully AFTER HAVING RECEIVED KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries."

    BTW, while we're in Heb10, whaddya think about: "How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and considered unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified? Still wanna contend that Hebrews' writer supports OSAS?

    "Therefore, do not throw away your confidence (see vs 19, don't throw away JESUS!), which has great reward (the reward is the INHERITANCE, ETERNAL LIFE---see COl3:24); for you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive the promise."

    If you think I'm "proof-texting", let's see how you handle two passages: James5:19-20---"Soul" is "psuche", same word as in Rev20:4; "death" is "thanatos", which means "death-and-HELL". Contrast with Jms2:26, "pneuma" and "nekros".

    AND---2Pet2:20-22; don't make the mistake of contending "the ESCAPEES were the FALSE ones"---the FALSE never cease from sin (14), slaves of corruption (19); the FALSE seek to entice the TRUE (14, 18---ONTOS-APOPHUEGO truly escaped). False prophets, false teachers, and truly escaped BELIEVERS!

    You must also deal with ch1, comparatively; the two chapters use the EXACT SAME WORDS:
    1. Apopheugo-escpaped world corruption through the EPIGNOSIS TRUE KNOWLEGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST (same faith as Peter)
    2. Apopheugo-escaped the defilements through the EPIGNOSIS TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.

    How can the SAME WORDS mean saved in ch1, unsaved in ch2? They can't. And the truly do "epistrepho-ek-turn-from the Holy commandment handed to them, and epistrepho-eis return to the vomit, and epistrepho-epi return unto the mire." There's just no way to twist this into "OSAS", is there?

    As I said, these are only a COUPLE of verses. Happy to post the rest of my list. The only reason I persist in these discussions, is that I believe it cuts to the heart of "what salvation is". If salvation is FELLOWSHIP, IE "abiding in Him", walking in Him and in the Spirit---then perseverence is very much directed from US to HIM.

    "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain of your calling and election; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble ("ptaio" become wretched); in this way the EISODOS-GATES of Heaven will be abundantly provided to you. But he who LACKS these qualities is blind or short-sighted, HAVING FORGOTTEN his purification from former sins." 2Pet1

    Proof-texting? Show me how?
     
  18. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +4
    Christian
    IF YOU CAN LOSE IT WHY DID HE DIE?

    &nbsp;

    [font="verdana, arial, helvetica"]When I received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior, God placed His Eternal Spirit within me and gave me Eternal Life. As a child of God, I'm still waiting to see Jesus, to enter Heaven, and to receive my new glorified body, but I'm NOT waiting to be saved. My soul IS saved, and I know I'm going to Heaven because God has given me Eternal Life.

    "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Pet. 1:5)

    "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)

    "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (I Jn. 5:13)

    ". . . . I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12)

    "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (Jn. 10:28)

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (Jn. 3:16)

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (Jn. 5:24)

    "He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (I Jn. 5:12)

    "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb. 10:14)

    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." (Rom. 4:5-8)
    [/font]
     
  19. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Hi, Julie. Did you see post #9 here? Do we agree on the basics of "what it takes to be saved"?

    :)
     
  20. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +4
    Christian
    No Ben we don't agree.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...