Christians and Neurology

[Bob Crowley]

... Do you have any input on that or anything that can help me be at peace with this topic, that would be awesome. Is there even a duality between body and soul? And if not, what would that mean? As always, biblically based reason and theology is what I am looking for. ...

I'm speaking from personal experience here, and not a scientific position. On the night my father died (11 January 1979) he appeared in my room. To cut a long story short, he "materialised" near the door.

My first reaction was "How the hell did you get in here??" He didn't answer that but moved to the foot of the bed." His opening words were "I've come (or "I've been sent..") to apologise for the way I've treated you. We had no idea of what you were going through." I somewhat cynically replied, "You mean you had no idea what you were doing to me!" He had been very cruel and deliberately destroyed my confidence over a period of about 20 years.

But enough of that. At the very end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream and then just disappeared. At no time did I see anything but him But it was obvious something was coming for him. His terror was so contagious that I started to scream myself, yet I couldn't even see what was frightening him so much. Then as I said he just vanished.

Four days later one of my uncles turned up to tell me he'd died, but after a few minutes said it was a mess as his body hadn't been found for four days. After a couple of minutes the penny dropped, and I still remember standing there and turning towards the bedroom, counting back fouir days or nights, and thinking "Then what the hell was that the other night?"

As far as I'm concerned it was him.

Now he had no body, no brain, no physical presence whatsoever. His body was lying in a flat several kilometres away. And I certainly had no human reason to suspect he'd died that night.

To look at, I suppose you could say he was ghost-like - I could focus on him, but I also see through him. I used to have this old chipboard bookcase which had a sag in the shelf as it was not strong enough to support the weight of the books. And I can still remember being able to see through him and see the bookcase.

We were talking, it was obvious he could "see" things in some form - he could hear me, and I could hear him (and I'm hard of hearing and didn't have my hearing aid on - in fact at one point I misheard him). He could obviously think. He could even see aspects of the future (I think he was being shown aspects of the future, to be more accurate).

For example, "You'll meet a pastor. You'll think he's great, but all he'll do is discourage you even more!"

I was an atheist at the time but became a Christian nearly 4 years later. I also met the pastor he was talking about at that time.

About nine years after that, I sat in the pastor's office to hear him say "I owe you an apology. You needed encouragement, but all I've done is to discourage you even more!" I then pointed out that he had just repeated my dead father's prediction about him about 12 years earlier, almost word for word. He blurted out, "You really did see your father that night."

So somehow our "mind" survives the destruction of our body. And the "new body" will be a gift. We didn't give ourselves our current lives and bodies, and we won't give ourselves a new body if we get to heaven. If we end up in hell, we won't be given a new body as it will just be spiritual torment. When my father screamed, he did so in spiritual form. When Christ drove the demons out, they invariably screamed as they knew they were going back to hell, and they were spirits.

In any case our old bodies will be so many constituent atoms by that time. The people vaporised at Nagasaki and Hiroshima could hardly claim to have bodies to be resurrected into - all their constituent atoms would have been caught up in a hurricane of fire, and dispersed to all points of a boiling mushroom cloud.

But I think their spirits were intact, and wondering what the hell was going on.

In the end, it all depends on God and His infallible memory, His mind, His judgment, His power, His ability, His gift.

I don't know where the dividing line exists between the mind in the brain, and the same mind in the spirit. But I know our being survives death, and proceeds to judgment. My screaming father was a witness of that. And he didn't scare that easily either - he was a WW II vet who was at Milne Bay (iconic battle for Australians when the Japanese suffered their first land defeat) and Huon Gulf or Peninsula later in the war. But he was terrified to the core just before he disappeared into eternity on 11 January.

Incidentally the death certificate shows 11 January. His gravestone shows 15 January. That was because his sisters didn't want his mother to know he'd been dead for 4 days before being found. They organised that. I just put that in as a bit of evidence that when my uncle turned up, I remember turning towards the bedroom and thinking, "Then what the hell was that the other night?"

But they're all dead now, and would know the truth regardless.

 

[GoatsandRoses]

Please go into neurology. We desperately need Christian neurologists, and we need to know more about how the brain works and how to help it when it has been damaged. Just as 200 years ago we did not understand what caused malaria or yellow fever, and many Christians suffered and died from these, today our knowledge of brain development is still very primitive and many Christians are basically trapped in bodies and with brains that I believe prevent the Holy Spirit from expressing Himself accurately. These people's souls/spirits may be perfect, redeemed by Christ, but the souls may not be able to express themselves or the work of the Holy Spirit.

Here is where I'm coming from: our adopted daughter (now almost 16) has ADHD and some other issues that have never been fully explained. According to tests, she falls in that no-mans-land of IQ between 70 and 85; and many doctors simply give up on kids with complex learning challenges, ADHD, and brain damage from early alcohol exposure and drugs. Symptoms overlap, there are no objective tests for many of our current diagnoses, the definitions of conditions change, and often the parents are left simply with knowing that something is wrong, but no one knows what to do about it. (I'm part of several mothers' groups of children like this, and hear this over and over.) Research in these areas shows that parts of these children's brains do not develop at a normal rate, and some never reach the same developmental level as other children's brains do. This slow development is blamed for many of these children (and adults) being impulsive, sometimes violent, unable to concentrate, easily provoked, lacking self-control, and other signs of immaturity. While my daughter's friend (who is developmentally advanced) early in life grasped the deep truths of the Faith and seemed to exhibit many of the fruit of the Spirit, my daughter has always struggled with simply "being good" because she moves FAST....and often doesn't think first. Of course, early in life she also struggled with understanding spoken or written language, complex instructions, concepts like cause-and-effect, and long-term consequences. She could not even transfer abstract rules ("Thou shalt not steal") to real-life situations.

As you have questioned yourself, so have I. I've asked myself if the "fruit of the Spirit" is simply the product of a healthy, well-developed brain blessed with average or higher-than-average IQ? Similarly, is the "conversion" experience simply a sign of basic needs being met and brain development that has reached the abstract-thinking stage? It is also a little disturbing to consider that a "good" Christian person, through age, illness, or head trauma, can suddenly become a completely different person in temperament. Even a healthy person can suddenly become violent due to hormones or serious blood sugar imbalances or, the opposite, a formerly violent person may become quieter and gentler when certain medical conditions are addressed.

If anything, it seems clear that the soul/spirit is currently housed in a shell (the body/brain) that can dramatically and SERIOUSLY impede that soul's ability to always express the actions of the Holy Spirit, just as paralysis can impede a Christian's inability to serve others physically. (Yet somehow the fact that the mind does not function correctly is FAR more troubling, because our mind is who we ARE. Our salvation is based on the ability to believe and our growth in the Christian life is gauged by qualities such as self-control.) As a neurologist, you could help diagnose and correct the results of the Fall; helping people's minds at least be healthy enough to, if they are Christians, express the inward work of the Holy Spirit.

As for Christian experiences changing our brains, you know that EVERYTHING we do changes our brains in one way or another, just as exercise changes our bodies and allows us to serve God physically. God, in His wisdom, has given us directions and exercises (for Bible study, prayers, charity, public worship, not giving into fear or anxiety, having the right attitude) that, if followed by a person with normal brain structure, will help our brains develop in such a way that they can give "outward expressions of an inward grace." We have homeschooled our daughter, and after many years I have seen that time, patience, wisdom, experience, and repetitive instruction has helped her brain mature. (A little medication has recently helped, too.) Even if some children never reach a "normal" level of development, many children seem to be able to gradually reach higher and higher levels than if they had simply been allowed to sit in a corner.

In conclusion, dealing with my daughter's struggles (her favorite saying is "The struggle is real.") has made me rethink a LOT of my previous assumptions about the results of the Fall, about our often religious pride at our ability to "be good," and the nature of sin. The idea that the body or the development and function of the brain may be hindering a soul's ability to express itself can make us slower to condemn others or to judge them after a simple cursory glance at outward actions. (Sinis still very real, however. By the Fall we all have the tendency toward sin.) Seeing my daughter "try to be good" and still fail has also made me slower to compare others with myself, and myself with others. Who knows what struggles and handicaps that person may have? The idea that part of our Christian self-identity (our ability to "act" like a Christian) is at least partially the result of good health and brain development, and is a gift from God, is a very humbling thought. Yet God, in His mercy, sometimes uses us in spite of our weaknesses. I've seen Him use my daughter, with her struggles, to minister to people in ways that I, with a great deal of education, and good IQ, and some theological knowledge, could NEVER reach. She is beloved by many, many people, who she touches with her joy, love, and incredible, almost inexhaustible, energy.

Go into neurology to help wonderful people like her. Go into neurology to help her friend, who just had a stroke at age 17, and his brother, who is autistic. Go into it for people like our friend Mr. Russel, who was a pastor until his mind was ravaged by early Alzheimer's. Go into neurology because you've been given precious and rare GIFTS: the gift of a strong and healthy mind that can learn and remember complex information (my daughter doesn't have these blessings), the desire to study medicine, and the ability to get into medical school. DON'T take these gifts lightly. They are NOT given to everyone! But they've been given to YOU, so that you can help other members of the Body of Christ and others. Blessings.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Continuing from post 21 and assuming someone studied the links:

A Soul is you. It is your identity and character and so on.

Your Body is a Temple. The Spirit of God Dwells in you.

This is a new age concept as stated since you have no idea who is reading this. IOW, it is true of believers filled with the HS but not true of everyone. You make no distinction.

Spirits have character. God has a character. Someone accepts in the Spirit of God,

I know of no scripture that talks of us accepting in the spirit of God

and goes through baptism and other things a pastor or priest may have him do.

Those are rituals absent a relationship. No relationship is mentioned.

The individual changes his identity.

Not in scripture.

Before, he was of the world and of the flesh. He works to develop Godly Character, and is mindful that he becomes part of the Body of Christ after confession, repentance, and communion.

Again rituals absent relationship. Again you mention no relationship.

Tapping into The Spirit of God may be intuitive at first.

The occult tap into spiritual powers.

There is cause and effect to it. Faith is a knowledgeable dependence.

Again like a ritual where no relationship needed. New Age

There are other spirits. Other spirits may have characters. These spirits may have tied themselves or rooted themselves or haunted various parts of the body. They may have planted seeds as thoughts, and given someone listened to them, and didn't shake them off, he may have given root to something. Their soul or identity may have been molded towards dishonorable and corrupt passions and forms.

This is pretty obvious new age.

Growing in Faith, at some point, I became aware that I was working on autopilot and a blindman for most of my life, and with God I was working more at 100% or more of my creators intent. My soul and God's spirit wove together in some way.

very new age. They too let a spirit take over (possess.)

(Word choice is important for most correct answer)

Correct. Your language reveals new age thought.

 

[frater_domus]

Go into neurology to help wonderful people like her. Go into neurology to help her friend, who just had a stroke at age 17, and his brother, who is autistic. Go into it for people like our friend Mr. Russel, who was a pastor until his mind was ravaged by early Alzheimer's. Go into neurology because you've been given precious and rare GIFTS: the gift of a strong and healthy mind that can learn and remember complex information (my daughter doesn't have these blessings), the desire to study medicine, and the ability to get into medical school. DON'T take these gifts lightly. They are NOT given to everyone!

Thanks for the heart-warming message

I am more of a hands-on person, thus I will not go into research, but instead into practicing. Probably. Never considered going into neurology though. The current situation is because my family knows the chief physician for neurology at that hospital. I am more of an oncology and palliative care guy myself, to be fair.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Frater, I think the foundational understanding needs to be two world views. One is materialistic, which is what most scientists maintain. It is a very old view going way back to the Greeks. It basically says that there is only matter and all that we see comes from matter. The other view is called "idealism" which acknowledges non-material elements of life. The latter is what Christians are since we acknowledge the whole of the unseen world. This world is not limited to spiritual matters but includes non-material matters such as love and courage and kindness and honesty. They are not fundamentally material although the materialistic would say they are all the result of neurochemical responses. They do not really live like that as no man can and have any hope at all. But it tends to be the view that scientists expect of all others. This is particularly true of the neuroscience folk who see what men are as only electrochemical responses of the neurons. This is likely where a Christian might face conflict along with evolution which assumes man is just an evolved non-man. These are two points where I see a great difference between the Christian and the atheist in science.

 

[frater_domus]

Frater, I think the foundational understanding needs to be two world views. One is materialistic, which is what most scientists maintain. It is a very old view going way back to the Greeks. It basically says that there is only matter and all that we see comes from matter. The other view is called "idealism" which acknowledges non-material elements of life. The latter is what Christians are since we acknowledge the whole of the unseen world. This world is not limited to spiritual matters but includes non-material matters such as love and courage and kindness and honesty. They are not fundamentally material although the materialistic would say they are all the result of neurochemical responses. They do not really live like that as no man can and have any hope at all. But it tends to be the view that scientists expect of all others. This is particularly true of the neuroscience folk who see what men are as only electrochemical responses of the neurons. This is likely where a Christian might face conflict along with evolution which assumes man is just an evolved non-man. These are two points where I see a great difference between the Christian and the atheist in science.

As I already mentioned, my view is that the bible is silent about scientific matters, because God gave us senses to explore it ourselves. We can not explore spiritual matter though, because we are blind to it, given our sinful nature and all, which is why we need the scripture. I support the view that says that there a book of scripture, which is spiritual matters, and a book of nature, which is the material world that God created. Both are in perfect harmony, but our interpretation thereof is not, hence conflicts arise.

 

[Foxfyre]

This topic has started to bother me. And I am not speaking as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but as a Christian first and aspiring medical professional second. My main issue comes with not knowing how much is tied to the body and how much to a non-comporeal entity, namely the soul.
There are plenty of articles from Christian neurologists that show that increased spiritual activities in Christians bring along changes in the brain, which result in changes in behaviour. But aren't those fruits of the Spirit? Or are the fruits inevitably tied to our bodies? In fact, there is nothing biblical that suggests that there is a dualism of body and soul. It even speaks about the resurrection of the body. It speaks about the dualism between desires of the flesh and the spirit, but apparently both are manifestations of the body, of us. The problem is that we have no way of knowing. Neuroscience is very young, and besides, the biblical is written with a spiritual view in mind. We can observe natural truths, but not spiritual ones.

Typically, I am in favour of sciences, if practiced with God. We learn about God's glorious creation and we can see His hands in it.
However, this reasoning stops working for me when it comes to neuroscience. Yes, I know that Gid created the brain and whatever happens there is by His design. Still, this is an irrational fear and thus it is hard to reason it away.
Maybe it is because I feel like my faith is threatened? Either way, I am a little scared of this topic, but I do not want to avoid it, but face it.

Do you have any input on that or anything that can help me be at peace with this topic, that would be awesome. Is there even a duality between body and soul? And if not, what would that mean? As always, biblically based reason and theology is what I am looking for.

Oh, and please leave go easy on the "all sciences are false" angle. God created the world and we observe it. Sciences are not evil, evil people merely use it to ungodly ends. I do not wish to drive the topic in that direction.

I don't know about the specific organic changes that might occur in the brain re Christian vs non-Christian. I do know that the more I try to live under counsel of the Holy Spirit and Christ's love for me, the less problem I have with how I think, how I react/respond to things, etc. Jesus is having a terrible time with me dealing with a quick and sometimes irrational and destructive temper, but I am convinced he is working on it as it harms me less and less, year by year. So maybe there is something to the brain alteration thing? I don't know.

I can testify that I have felt the power of prayer, sustaining me, encouraging me, giving me strength and power to do what I need to do, and yes, healing me. If (the rhetorical) you think your prayers are just going into some empty void and accomplish nothing, that is Satin talking to you. Don't believe it. The power is real.

And I am a strong believer in technology, in honest science that informs us rather than indoctrinates us, and that God is the author of all of that including medical science and medicine as an art/gift.

So my counsel to you my friend is to give your fears and concerns to God and trust Him to lead you, guide you, and use you for His purposes and greater good. Learn what you can and trust Him to sort out any bad from the good and to use what you learn for His glory.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As I already mentioned, my view is that the bible is silent about scientific matters, because God gave us senses to explore it ourselves. We can not explore spiritual matter though, because we are blind to it, given our sinful nature and all, which is why we need the scripture.

Not sure I accept the latter but it’s not part of this discussion.

I support the view that says that there a book of scripture, which is spiritual matters, and a book of nature, which is the material world that God created. Both are in perfect harmony, but our interpretation thereof is not, hence conflicts arise.

Well I am thoroughly convinced the authors were not in conflict. Many don’t want to know what the authors knew. When we do know, however, there is no conflict. But it’s complex.... same as science.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't know about the specific organic changes that might occur in the brain re Christian vs non-Christian. I do know that the more I try to live under counsel of the Holy Spirit and Christ's love for me, the less problem I have with how I think, how I react/respond to things, etc. Jesus is having a terrible time with me dealing with a quick and sometimes irrational and destructive temper, but I am convinced he is working on it as it harms me less and less, year by year. So maybe there is something to the brain alteration thing? I don't know.

I can testify that I have felt the power of prayer, sustaining me, encouraging me, giving me strength and power to do what I need to do, and yes, healing me. If (the rhetorical) you think your prayers are just going into some empty void and accomplish nothing, that is Satin talking to you. Don't believe it. The power is real.

And I am a strong believer in technology, in honest science that informs us rather than indoctrinates us, and that God is the author of all of that including medical science and medicine as an art/gift.

So my counsel to you my friend is to give your fears and concerns to God and trust Him to lead you, guide you, and use you for His purposes and greater good. Learn what you can and trust Him to sort out any bad from the good and to use what you learn for His glory.

I know it’s a typo but I had to laugh at Satin talking. Pretty smooth I assume.

Otherwise I think one can pursue understanding and must if one wants it. I have found that God answers questions but if one doesn’t ask, He doesn’t.

 

[Man on Fire]

This is a new age concept as stated since you have no idea who is reading this. IOW, it is true of believers filled with the HS but not true of everyone. You make no distinction.
I know of no scripture that talks of us accepting in the spirit of God Those are rituals absent a relationship. No relationship is mentioned.

Not in scripture.Again rituals absent relationship. Again you mention no relationship.The occult tap into spiritual powers.
Again like a ritual where no relationship needed. New Age
This is pretty obvious new age.

very new age. They too let a spirit take over (possess.)
Correct. Your language reveals new age thought.

You made a lot of unfounded accusations at me. I ask that you apologize.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You made a lot of unfounded accusations at me. I ask that you apologize.

Your post was evaluated as compared to new age thought which it matches in some points. You ought to defend your position if you think my post was in error. To instead require something personal from me shows me that you cannot defend your position. I can go into detail as to how your language reflects new age thought not biblical thought.

 

[Sabertooth]

Frater, I think the foundational understanding needs to be two world views. One is materialistic, which is what most scientists maintain. It is a very old view going way back to the Greeks. It basically says that there is only matter and all that we see comes from matter. The other view is called "idealism" which acknowledges non-material elements of life. The latter is what Christians are since we acknowledge the whole of the unseen world.

I've only heard of the terms Vitalism vs. Mechanism.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I've only heard of the terms Vitalism vs. Mechanism.

Interesting. I read the first link. Quite similar to the philosophic positions. Agree? See a difference?

 

[Sabertooth]

Agree? See a difference?

Your post reminded me of them.

 

[Foxfyre]

I know it’s a typo but I had to laugh at Satin talking. Pretty smooth I assume.

Otherwise I think one can pursue understanding and must if one wants it. I have found that God answers questions but if one doesn’t ask, He doesn’t.

Yes, darn autocorrect. I agree God answers questions. I do think he sometimes provides an answer for things I haven't been able to form a question for.

 

[Gell]

Coincidentally I have just gone through with Romans 8 as I was listening to Ravi Zacharias’ sermon on “the problem with pleasure”.
And what gripped my attention was what this chapter is talking about the duality of the human mind.
I recommend you reading this chapter of Romans.

 

[Man on Fire]

Your post was evaluated as compared to new age thought which it matches in some points. You ought to defend your position if you think my post was in error. To instead require something personal from me shows me that you cannot defend your position. I can go into detail as to how your language reflects new age thought not biblical thought.

You have many misunderstanding about The Bible and the Spiritual. You worked to falsely associate me with New Age like a New Age Guru. In doing so you have woven deceit. I don't have to defend against baseless accusations. You are wrong and should apologize.

The Topic is Christians and Neurology. In order to best explain how The Spiritual works someone needs a good definition of what a Spirit is, and what a Soul is to be able to most accurately define how they interact. You appear to be someone who hates Truth, and is working to hide something. I was not challenged nor enlightened any by your continued false accusations of me being new age.

 

[Man on Fire]

There are some concepts that are more akin to eastern mystical thought that Judiac biblical thought. I have no idea what "accept in the Spirit of God" means but it sounds new agey. I also notice that rituals are mentioned as the path but not walking with God. I walk with God and have never considered "tapping into The (why caps) Spirit of God either on purpose or intuitively and don't know how that would work. He is not a resource for my convenience. I do talk to Him and he to me but that is no more tapping into Him than my daughter talking to me. The difference is relationship not a self-improvement or finding spiritual experience arrangement.

https://www.gotquestions.org/accepting-Christ.html

You are not an authority. You should stop writing like you are.

I was a life long Christian. Around age 30, I received a calling. I went from regular man to talking to God and receiving a lot of cause and effect with the spiritual.

Given you have some issue you could comment nicely and ask questions instead of accusing and berating.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, darn autocorrect. I agree God answers questions. I do think he sometimes provides an answer for things I haven't been able to form a question for.

Like what? What info did He give that you weren’t asking for? Don’t take this personally. When anyone including me, makes a claim, I test it against real life.

So i’m wondering what sort of info you recall getting from God Himself that you didn’t ask for.

 

[Anguspure]

This topic has started to bother me. And I am not speaking as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but as a Christian first and aspiring medical professional second. My main issue comes with not knowing how much is tied to the body and how much to a non-comporeal entity, namely the soul.
There are plenty of articles from Christian neurologists that show that increased spiritual activities in Christians bring along changes in the brain, which result in changes in behaviour. But aren't those fruits of the Spirit? Or are the fruits inevitably tied to our bodies? In fact, there is nothing biblical that suggests that there is a dualism of body and soul. It even speaks about the resurrection of the body. It speaks about the dualism between desires of the flesh and the spirit, but apparently both are manifestations of the body, of us. The problem is that we have no way of knowing. Neuroscience is very young, and besides, the biblical is written with a spiritual view in mind. We can observe natural truths, but not spiritual ones.

Typically, I am in favour of sciences, if practiced with God. We learn about God's glorious creation and we can see His hands in it.
However, this reasoning stops working for me when it comes to neuroscience. Yes, I know that Gid created the brain and whatever happens there is by His design. Still, this is an irrational fear and thus it is hard to reason it away.
Maybe it is because I feel like my faith is threatened? Either way, I am a little scared of this topic, but I do not want to avoid it, but face it.

Do you have any input on that or anything that can help me be at peace with this topic, that would be awesome. Is there even a duality between body and soul? And if not, what would that mean? As always, biblically based reason and theology is what I am looking for.

Oh, and please leave go easy on the "all sciences are false" angle. God created the world and we observe it. Sciences are not evil, evil people merely use it to ungodly ends. I do not wish to drive the topic in that direction.

This may be of interest to you:
https://evolutionnews.org/2018/07/n...losophical-physician-on-science-and-the-soul/