Christians and Neurology

Man on Fire · Jul 3, 2018

I don't know that many Christian really understand what a Spirit is and what a Soul is and what the Bible says about them, and how they actually interact. I recevied a calling from God, and have been learning as taught by the Holy Ghost. The following are some articles that may aid someone in seeing:

https://www.christianforums.com/blogs/the-heart-and-honor-and-the-soul.58324/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianMysticism/comments/8si6qj/what_are_spirits/

More or less, I went from normal man to very sensitive to spiritual things and God.

frater_domus · Jul 3, 2018

Uber Genius said:
Your statment that there is nothing Biblical to suggest dualism, seems false in every page.

Fair enough. I suppose that was me simply extrapolating. What I am mainly referring to is that the NT does about the resurrection of the body, which to me sounds like the flesh and bone part of me. Glad you cleared that up though

@Dorothy Mae I'd like that. I am currently doing an internship in the neurology section at a hospital. The internal medicine kind, not surgery. That is what triggered the questions in me
The "matter does not determine its own actions" is a huge point. I always use this to explain why animals are not equal to humans or to explain how biochemical processes is ultimately based on random chance (well, all of chemistry, actually ). I suppose it also hold true in this case. The body is not capable to choosing. "We" are. Though I do suppose that there is a deeper connection between the spirit and the body than we anticipate.

blackribbon · Jul 3, 2018

When a person dies, they no longer look the same as when they were alive. They don't even look like when they were sleeping or in a coma. I believe that missing aspect, the personality, is tied to the soul no longer existing in the body. When my husband was in a coma dying, there were two times that I subconsciously panicked because I looked at him in the bed and knew that "he wasn't in there anymore". He physically didn't look the same during these times. I knew his soul had left the body and in the state I was in, one of the times I could have actually pointed in the room at where it was. Just sensing where he was was enough for me to feel at peace again. Both times he came back into his body. This was all a couple days before he actually died and left for good.

I know that another other widow friend described the time her husband died as feeling and seeing something leaving the room...not unlike a bird or a wisp of wind.

The brain is organic and an organ. Medicine can touch and treat a brain malfunctioning. However, it can not touch, medicate, or change the soul of a person. That stays consistent. Only God can change that. I think the soul is closer to the psychiatric side of the brain than the neurological side of it's functioning ... but even psychological illnesses are often organic. I think the soul exists separately and maybe isn't even really tied to the brain beyond that is its means of expressing itself to the world.

Man on Fire · Jul 3, 2018

Continuing from post 21 and assuming someone studied the links:

A Soul is you. It is your identity and character and so on.

Your Body is a Temple. The Spirit of God Dwells in you.

Spirits have character. God has a character. Someone accepts in the Spirit of God, and goes through baptism and other things a pastor or priest may have him do. The individual changes his identity. Before, he was of the world and of the flesh. He works to develop Godly Character, and is mindful that he becomes part of the Body of Christ after confession, repentance, and communion. Tapping into The Spirit of God may be intuitive at first. There is cause and effect to it. Faith is a knowledgeable dependence.

There are other spirits. Other spirits may have characters. These spirits may have tied themselves or rooted themselves or haunted various parts of the body. They may have planted seeds as thoughts, and given someone listened to them, and didn't shake them off, he may have given root to something. Their soul or identity may have been molded towards dishonorable and corrupt passions and forms.

Growing in Faith, at some point, I became aware that I was working on autopilot and a blindman for most of my life, and with God I was working more at 100% or more of my creators intent. My soul and God's spirit wove together in some way.

(Word choice is important for most correct answer)

Sanoy · Jul 3, 2018

frater_domus said:
Still, there is that slight remainder of anxiety that modern sciences may turn millenia of theology on its head and we misunderstood the bible and God all along. I know that that is fairly unlikely, because as I said, God doesn't make mistakes, but still, there it is. I realize that it isn't rational, but since when has that stopped any kind of fear

This same fear is actually a reality happening for materialism. The old "promisory materialism" has essentially gone bankrupt in a number of areas and we are on the cusp of world view change. A reductive material account of ourselves is now being shown to be self refuting. If anyone should be afraid it's the other guys. In the past few decades things have shifted, and the more science that goes on the more God becomes a neccesity. Now is the time to be emboldened, by the time you enter the field you might be landing the killing blow.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 3, 2018

frater_domus said:
@Dorothy Mae I'd like that. I am currently doing an internship in the neurology section at a hospital. The internal medicine kind, not surgery. That is what triggered the questions in me
The "matter does not determine its own actions" is a huge point. I always use this to explain why animals are not equal to humans or to explain how biochemical processes is ultimately based on random chance (well, all of chemistry, actually ). I suppose it also hold true in this case. The body is not capable to choosing. "We" are. Though I do suppose that there is a deeper connection between the spirit and the body than we anticipate.

I work in the neurology outpatient section at a university hospital. But I’m not a doctor. Doctors or PhDs in our place have no time to pursue forum discussions as they have 50-6o hour weeks. Philosophy is my hobby and that plays a role in this. Anyway, let’s discuss this.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 3, 2018

I understand to a degree. There was a point I felt a little threatened in my understanding by piecing things together and I asked myself similar questions.

frater_domus said:
It said that spiritual activities like prayers and meditating on scripture changes the brain. It promotes the region of the brain that is responsible for good deeds, empathy and love, while inhibiting the part that is reponsible for aggression and anger, along with changes in the frontal lobe. So couldn't the "fruits of the Spirit" simply just be the non-scientific name for the biological changes that the disciples were not aware of?

I have come to better appreciate the process Christians normally undergo in life. We are formed into the likeness of Christ if we cooperate with God, through the action of the Holy Spirit. Our cooperation consists in many things - prayer, worshipping God, meditation, reading Scripture, acts of kindness or charity, and many other things.

Yes, the grace of God, the action of the Holy Spirit, works in us to change us to be more like Christ as we do these things.

If we've pulled aside the veil just a bit (surely not as much as we might be tempted to think we have done - a little data does not equal full understanding!) - then why should that damage the belief that it happens? If anything, with a good understanding of how Christ is formed in us, such data should serve as more confirmation than detraction.

As to spiritual "experiences" ... those are more akin to what happens when we interact with others and build relationships. That is still a very mysterious realm to neuroscience, so not being able to peer into that isn't a problem either.

But properly interpreted, I think the data aligns perfectly with Scripture (also properly interpreted).

Anguspure · Jul 3, 2018

frater_domus said:
This topic has started to bother me. And I am not speaking as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but as a Christian first and aspiring medical professional second. My main issue comes with not knowing how much is tied to the body and how much to a non-comporeal entity, namely the soul.
There are plenty of articles from Christian neurologists that show that increased spiritual activities in Christians bring along changes in the brain, which result in changes in behaviour. But aren't those fruits of the Spirit? Or are the fruits inevitably tied to our bodies? In fact, there is nothing biblical that suggests that there is a dualism of body and soul. It even speaks about the resurrection of the body. It speaks about the dualism between desires of the flesh and the spirit, but apparently both are manifestations of the body, of us. The problem is that we have no way of knowing. Neuroscience is very young, and besides, the biblical is written with a spiritual view in mind. We can observe natural truths, but not spiritual ones.

Typically, I am in favour of sciences, if practiced with God. We learn about God's glorious creation and we can see His hands in it.
However, this reasoning stops working for me when it comes to neuroscience. Yes, I know that Gid created the brain and whatever happens there is by His design. Still, this is an irrational fear and thus it is hard to reason it away.
Maybe it is because I feel like my faith is threatened? Either way, I am a little scared of this topic, but I do not want to avoid it, but face it.

Do you have any input on that or anything that can help me be at peace with this topic, that would be awesome. Is there even a duality between body and soul? And if not, what would that mean? As always, biblically based reason and theology is what I am looking for.

Oh, and please leave go easy on the "all sciences are false" angle. God created the world and we observe it. Sciences are not evil, evil people merely use it to ungodly ends. I do not wish to drive the topic in that direction.

I have recently been involved with this stuff at a counselling level through Kathy King (https://livestransformed.co.nz//)
Her take on the field shows that the latest findings of Nueroscience are bringing the whole field into line with the Bible.

dqhall · Jul 3, 2018

frater_domus said:
This topic has started to bother me. And I am not speaking as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but as a Christian first and aspiring medical professional second. My main issue comes with not knowing how much is tied to the body and how much to a non-comporeal entity, namely the soul.
There are plenty of articles from Christian neurologists that show that increased spiritual activities in Christians bring along changes in the brain, which result in changes in behaviour. But aren't those fruits of the Spirit? Or are the fruits inevitably tied to our bodies? In fact, there is nothing biblical that suggests that there is a dualism of body and soul. It even speaks about the resurrection of the body. It speaks about the dualism between desires of the flesh and the spirit, but apparently both are manifestations of the body, of us. The problem is that we have no way of knowing. Neuroscience is very young, and besides, the biblical is written with a spiritual view in mind. We can observe natural truths, but not spiritual ones.

Typically, I am in favour of sciences, if practiced with God. We learn about God's glorious creation and we can see His hands in it.
However, this reasoning stops working for me when it comes to neuroscience. Yes, I know that Gid created the brain and whatever happens there is by His design. Still, this is an irrational fear and thus it is hard to reason it away.
Maybe it is because I feel like my faith is threatened? Either way, I am a little scared of this topic, but I do not want to avoid it, but face it.

Do you have any input on that or anything that can help me be at peace with this topic, that would be awesome. Is there even a duality between body and soul? And if not, what would that mean? As always, biblically based reason and theology is what I am looking for.

Oh, and please leave go easy on the "all sciences are false" angle. God created the world and we observe it. Sciences are not evil, evil people merely use it to ungodly ends. I do not wish to drive the topic in that direction.

Dr. Daniel Amen studied thousands of brain scans and found that some mentally ill people had damaged brains. Brain damage was caused by head trauma, substance abuse, poor nutrition, even indoor painting as an occupation. Some of these people were able to recover through lifestyle and nutrition changes, but not all. Some doctors have found that some people lose their mental abilities as arteries in their brain clog up with plaque.

People who sin may get bad results whether their neurological system is healthy or not. People who race super fast motor bikes on streets do not have as long a life expectancy, regardless of their brain health, or whether or not they think God exists. Some who set out to harm others also harmed themselves.

Doctor.Sphinx · Jul 3, 2018

frater_domus said:
This topic has started to bother me. And I am not speaking as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but as a Christian first and aspiring medical professional second. My main issue comes with not knowing how much is tied to the body and how much to a non-comporeal entity, namely the soul.
There are plenty of articles from Christian neurologists that show that increased spiritual activities in Christians bring along changes in the brain, which result in changes in behaviour. But aren't those fruits of the Spirit? Or are the fruits inevitably tied to our bodies? In fact, there is nothing biblical that suggests that there is a dualism of body and soul. It even speaks about the resurrection of the body. It speaks about the dualism between desires of the flesh and the spirit, but apparently both are manifestations of the body, of us. The problem is that we have no way of knowing. Neuroscience is very young, and besides, the biblical is written with a spiritual view in mind. We can observe natural truths, but not spiritual ones.

Typically, I am in favour of sciences, if practiced with God. We learn about God's glorious creation and we can see His hands in it.
However, this reasoning stops working for me when it comes to neuroscience. Yes, I know that Gid created the brain and whatever happens there is by His design. Still, this is an irrational fear and thus it is hard to reason it away.
Maybe it is because I feel like my faith is threatened? Either way, I am a little scared of this topic, but I do not want to avoid it, but face it.

Do you have any input on that or anything that can help me be at peace with this topic, that would be awesome. Is there even a duality between body and soul? And if not, what would that mean? As always, biblically based reason and theology is what I am looking for.

Oh, and please leave go easy on the "all sciences are false" angle. God created the world and we observe it. Sciences are not evil, evil people merely use it to ungodly ends. I do not wish to drive the topic in that direction.

I don't understand why its strange to you that spiritual changes would eventually manifest in the body. Isn't this the source of death in the first place? Adam's sin leads to death for himself and all his descendants.

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Sabertooth · Jul 3, 2018

Quid est Veritas? said:
Soul and Spirit aren't nicely differentiated,...

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 NIV

Dorothy Mae · Jul 3, 2018

Man on Fire said:
Continuing from post 21 and assuming someone studied the links:

A Soul is you. It is your identity and character and so on.

Your Body is a Temple. The Spirit of God Dwells in you.

Spirits have character. God has a character. Someone accepts in the Spirit of God, and goes through baptism and other things a pastor or priest may have him do. The individual changes his identity. Before, he was of the world and of the flesh. He works to develop Godly Character, and is mindful that he becomes part of the Body of Christ after confession, repentance, and communion. Tapping into The Spirit of God may be intuitive at first. There is cause and effect to it. Faith is a knowledgeable dependence.

There are other spirits. Other spirits may have characters. These spirits may have tied themselves or rooted themselves or haunted various parts of the body. They may have planted seeds as thoughts, and given someone listened to them, and didn't shake them off, he may have given root to something. Their soul or identity may have been molded towards dishonorable and corrupt passions and forms.

Growing in Faith, at some point, I became aware that I was working on autopilot and a blindman for most of my life, and with God I was working more at 100% or more of my creators intent. My soul and God's spirit wove together in some way.

(Word choice is important for most correct answer)

There are some concepts that are more akin to eastern mystical thought that Judiac biblical thought. I have no idea what "accept in the Spirit of God" means but it sounds new agey. I also notice that rituals are mentioned as the path but not walking with God. I walk with God and have never considered "tapping into The (why caps) Spirit of God either on purpose or intuitively and don't know how that would work. He is not a resource for my convenience. I do talk to Him and he to me but that is no more tapping into Him than my daughter talking to me. The difference is relationship not a self-improvement or finding spiritual experience arrangement.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 3, 2018

frater_domus said:
This topic has started to bother me. And I am not speaking as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but as a Christian first and aspiring medical professional second. My main issue comes with not knowing how much is tied to the body and how much to a non-comporeal entity, namely the soul.
There are plenty of articles from Christian neurologists that show that increased spiritual activities in Christians bring along changes in the brain, which result in changes in behaviour. But aren't those fruits of the Spirit? Or are the fruits inevitably tied to our bodies? In fact, there is nothing biblical that suggests that there is a dualism of body and soul. It even speaks about the resurrection of the body. It speaks about the dualism between desires of the flesh and the spirit, but apparently both are manifestations of the body, of us. The problem is that we have no way of knowing. Neuroscience is very young, and besides, the biblical is written with a spiritual view in mind. We can observe natural truths, but not spiritual ones.

Typically, I am in favour of sciences, if practiced with God. We learn about God's glorious creation and we can see His hands in it.
However, this reasoning stops working for me when it comes to neuroscience. Yes, I know that Gid created the brain and whatever happens there is by His design. Still, this is an irrational fear and thus it is hard to reason it away.
Maybe it is because I feel like my faith is threatened? Either way, I am a little scared of this topic, but I do not want to avoid it, but face it.

Do you have any input on that or anything that can help me be at peace with this topic, that would be awesome. Is there even a duality between body and soul? And if not, what would that mean? As always, biblically based reason and theology is what I am looking for.

Oh, and please leave go easy on the "all sciences are false" angle. God created the world and we observe it. Sciences are not evil, evil people merely use it to ungodly ends. I do not wish to drive the topic in that direction.

The only way to tell the difference betwist spirit and soul is by Yahweh's Word as He Permits. The 'natural man', unspiritual and unregenerated never understands anything spiritual, and cannot unless Yahweh grants it somehow.

As written in Galatians all society is pernicious (I think this is repeated 2 or 3 times in Galatians, in context and harmony with all Galatians and all Scripture).
As written in Ephesians all men of the world are subject to the prince of the power of the air (the devil). This does not exclude any sciences. i.e. they are all opposed to God according to these Scriptures.

Mark Quayle · Jul 4, 2018

frater_domus said:
This topic has started to bother me. And I am not speaking as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but as a Christian first and aspiring medical professional second. My main issue comes with not knowing how much is tied to the body and how much to a non-comporeal entity, namely the soul.
There are plenty of articles from Christian neurologists that show that increased spiritual activities in Christians bring along changes in the brain, which result in changes in behaviour. But aren't those fruits of the Spirit? Or are the fruits inevitably tied to our bodies? In fact, there is nothing biblical that suggests that there is a dualism of body and soul. It even speaks about the resurrection of the body. It speaks about the dualism between desires of the flesh and the spirit, but apparently both are manifestations of the body, of us. The problem is that we have no way of knowing. Neuroscience is very young, and besides, the biblical is written with a spiritual view in mind. We can observe natural truths, but not spiritual ones.

Typically, I am in favour of sciences, if practiced with God. We learn about God's glorious creation and we can see His hands in it.
However, this reasoning stops working for me when it comes to neuroscience. Yes, I know that Gid created the brain and whatever happens there is by His design. Still, this is an irrational fear and thus it is hard to reason it away.
Maybe it is because I feel like my faith is threatened? Either way, I am a little scared of this topic, but I do not want to avoid it, but face it.

Do you have any input on that or anything that can help me be at peace with this topic, that would be awesome. Is there even a duality between body and soul? And if not, what would that mean? As always, biblically based reason and theology is what I am looking for.

Oh, and please leave go easy on the "all sciences are false" angle. God created the world and we observe it. Sciences are not evil, evil people merely use it to ungodly ends. I do not wish to drive the topic in that direction.

Mark Quayle · Jul 4, 2018

I want to commend you on what seems apparent --that you are not afraid of what is truth, but of the unknown.

I want to add another thought to yours, that I believe is totally relevant and maybe revealing, but I'm not sure just how, yet. It is this: That these very bodies (including brains) will be resurrected and made "real" in a way they are not now. I'm not altogether sure the word "physical" as we understand it will apply to the new bodies --it is more like CS Lewis' way of looking at the spiritual --that is is more real than the "reality" in which we function at present. (The reformed view of the difference between God and us is like it too --that God all virtues within himself, as Creator, so that what we see as, for example, GOOD, is not something God does for effect or because it is good to do so. No, GOOD is what it is, because God is good.)

I'm guessing that our bodies at present, including the workings of neurology, whether they cause or are effects, or even both (another speculation of mine --for eg, language affects our thinking, but also, what and how we think affects our language), the workings of neurology, I say, are an actual part of us --we are not just spirit beings, and so much more so will it truly be so in the resurrected bodies.

I put it thus at risk of sounding like the spirit, or coming life, is like this one --it is not. I want to make that very clear, because that mistake is the cause of much false teaching. (I have no desire, for example, to compare my Heavenly Father to my Dad, or to draw teachings off my father's attributes to make statements about God. No, no matter how wonderful my Dad was, it is backwards to do so, rather: God is not like earthly fathers; earthly fathers are like God, only not very well.)

Mark Quayle · Jul 4, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
There are some concepts that are more akin to eastern mystical thought that Judiac biblical thought. I have no idea what "accept in the Spirit of God" means but it sounds new agey. I also notice that rituals are mentioned as the path but not walking with God. I walk with God and have never considered "tapping into The (why caps) Spirit of God either on purpose or intuitively and don't know how that would work. He is not a resource for my convenience. I do talk to Him and he to me but that is no more tapping into Him than my daughter talking to me. The difference is relationship not a self-improvement or finding spiritual experience arrangement.

Right, Dorothy. That is akin to witchcraft, to make a tool out of the spiritual, for the uses of the the person. To submit God to our purposes, is what God has always shown us to be what we prefer, (and must avoid, lest we find ourselves no better than what we preach against). To think we by works can accomplish anything worthy, or that we can do more good than evil, and so by the balances deserve salvation --this is the sort of thing we are talking about. Well, "the bed is too short, the blanket too narrow."

To think we can dip in and out of the spiritual and remain in control shows rebellion against submission to God.

joshua 1 9 · Jul 4, 2018

frater_domus said:
My main issue comes with not knowing how much is tied to the body and how much to a non-comporeal entity, namely the soul.

The Spirit goes beyond what the Soul can do. With positive thinking and the power of suggestion the soul can be motivated to accomplish quite a bit of healing. We see that in double blind studies. With Spiritual healing we see restoration that would not be possible with the soul. Also the souls is limited by time and time is not a factor with the Spirit. So you can go back in time to have healing that effect us here and now today. We are born into this world body and soul and when we become born again we become body - soul - spirit. Also with the spirit we see a sacrificial love that goes beyond the doing what makes me feel good love of the soul. The soul is connected with the body and so the soul is highly effected by the natural hormones produced by the body or the artificial drugs made to plug into the receptors that the natural hormones plug into. Like Oxycontin plugs into the Oxytocin hormone receptors. Oxycontin and other Opioid synthetics tend to block the receptors and they prevent the body from naturally healing itself.

Man on Fire · Jul 4, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
There are some concepts that are more akin to eastern mystical thought that Judiac biblical thought.

How? Show me?

I also notice that rituals are mentioned as the path but not walking with God.

Nowhere did I mention rituals to the exclusion of walking with God.

συνείδησις · Jul 4, 2018

frater_domus said:
Typically, I am in favour of sciences, if practiced with God. We learn about God's glorious creation and we can see His hands in it.
However, this reasoning stops working for me when it comes to neuroscience. Yes, I know that Gid created the brain and whatever happens there is by His design. Still, this is an irrational fear and thus it is hard to reason it away.
Maybe it is because I feel like my faith is threatened? Either way, I am a little scared of this topic, but I do not want to avoid it, but face it.

You are entering the stronghold of the enemy - the mind - and reason alone will never cut it. It's like trying to go up against Goliath with a sword, so to speak. You must have reason based upon understanding. Understanding is the foremost and most excellent intelligence that speaks from the heart and puts all of the mind's knowledge pieces together (that's basically what the words σύνεσις and בִּינָה mean - a mental putting together).

When I would try to explain this to my dad long ago he would counter with supreme confidence that what I was talking about was simply a function of the two hemispheres of the brain. I remember that idea being threatening to my ideas, but I was grounded enough and knew the voice of understanding in my heart to lean upon that (lean not to thine own understanding in the mind) so as to abide in a lowly mind and not enter into his battlefield of a lifted up mind. GOD has since humbled him to the point that he admits he doesn't know what he was talking about.

Man's way is to develop understanding from knowledge. But GOD doesn't work that way. The spirit of understanding is a light that shines in the heart (not the mind as the gnostics think), like the son of GOD/man walking amid the 7 golden lampstands illuminating the church. Abide in that place, and he will show you the way. As it is written:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Proverbs 3:5-6

Anguspure · Jul 4, 2018

Sabertooth said:
I take the position that our brains are organic PLCs. They are responsible for managing our sensory inputs, translating our express will into voluntary bodily processes, maintaining involuntary bodily processes and memory. Our souls are at the controls.

Your soul has subjective preferences like color, food, music, etc.

Yes, the brain is a user interface for a non-material mind, but I think it would be mistake to consider that a human mind exists independantly of the body. In humanity we are created as an integrated whole that has a spiritual element.

Christians and Neurology

Well-Known Member

Faith is all that matters.

Not a newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

† Handmaid of God †

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!

Well-Known Member

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency