Christians and intoxicating substances and what the Bible says about it.

[Albion]

Do Anglicans and Catholics condone "moderate" indulgence of wilfully received intoxicants?

Yes--if we are speaking of alcoholic beverages. And so also do the members of most other Christian churches.

Is it a denominational teaching in those sects, in disagreement with pretty much every Baptist I have ever known or heard of and what they teach as the correct Bible doctrine in the issue?.......well, let's say 90 percent of them.

You are right that the Baptists, Adventists, some Methodists, and a few other denominations--a decided minority of Christian denominations--make abstaining from alcohol a key policy. I couldn't say if it is gaining popularity among Baptists. It appears to be losing ground among Methodists, from what I've been told.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You don't want to hear it, it's there. You don't want it to be there so you refuse to see it. You are free to make that choice as long as God allows. He will bring us all into judgment for every word, thought, and deed and that will be the end of freedom to see or not see whatever we choose.

You have yet to address the issue of what people were to do PRIOR to having the tools to keep juices from becoming alcoholic in certain climates ( hint same reason that people cured meat. You have also yet to address the issue of drinking alcohol when there is no safe drinking water ( another common reason for 100s of years. If the words of God do not change and those facts are true ( that is the fact that people used it to preserve and as safe alrertive to water; both cannot be true that God does not allow alcohol, but yet the only way for His people to have passover for YEARS with the grapes picked MUCH earlier was in alcoholic form.

 

[tall73]

You have yet to address the issue of what people were to do PRIOR to having the tools to keep juices from becoming alcoholic in certain climates ( hint same reason that people cured meat. You have also yet to address the issue of drinking alcohol when there is no safe drinking water ( another common reason for 100s of years. If the words of God do not change and those facts are true ( that is the fact that people used it to preserve and as safe alrertive to water; both cannot be true that God does not allow alcohol, but yet the only way for His people to have passover for YEARS with the grapes picked MUCH earlier was in alcoholic form.

I think the Biblical text is sufficient to show they had no issue with alcohol in moderation. However, there was the technology to preserve juice in some forms, usually in a syrup or must form. They would then add water at times to it to drink it.

I don't agree with everything in this article, but it seems they did have some ways of preserving things:

https://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

This article is by an Adventist, but you can look up his primary sources if interested.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Nonsense. Christ drank wine--that's recorded in Scripture. And he made some high-quality wine himself for the guests at the wedding in Cana--that's recorded in Scripture. We recommended, even, commanded, that his followers use it in the celebration of the Lord's Supper. There is no doubt that a judicious use of alcohol was not only approved of by him but used by him.

Sounds to me like you think Jesus had a weakness for alcohol and He encouraged others to have this same weakness and deal with it the same way you imply He dealt with His weakness, by self-indulgence. Are you sure you are talking about Jesus and not just talking about yourself, trying to make Him be like you rather than for you to be like Him, so you can claim to have an excuse for self-indulgence in drugs like alcohol, using the drug for your own personal pleasure?

If you have to express yourself forcefully with cursing when I compare the drug, alcohol, to other drugs, it is a sign of weakness in your power of reason. If you are going to spit cuss words in my face like some drunk at the bar used to do back in my days of self-indulgence in "moderation", when I didn't get too drunk, only "moderately" indulging..
I'm going to have to keep myself from looking at your talking because I don't like people spitting cuss words in my face. If you keep cussing like that, it makes your teeth weak because of the venom you are spitting...especially if alcohol is added to the poison of your words, it really does weaken the teeth and bones.....at least that's what my Father taught me. I don't know what kind of Christians you've been hanging around with, or was that some kind of guess on your part? In any case, I can't respect the attempt to damn one thing but associating it with something else that we not talking about and which has no connection.

Dear Mr. , you are the only one trying to damn here. This is a discussion around the OP, and the OP is about intoxicating substances. Alcohol is a drug, an intoxicating substance like other drugs. If you use language they way you are here in my house like you did here in this post, you would be apologizing or leaving promptly willingly or by force.
I refer to Alcohol as an intoxicant the same as marijuana is an intoxicant. If you have a problem with that, that is your problem and not mine. It's clear in the OP and I stand by it. The ungodly arguments supporting "moderate" self indulgence in alcohol can be, and often are, used the same way for any other self-indulgence of drugs which is being defended by others like you in this thread.


I certainly do not hang around Christians like you who support using drugs such as alcohol, and who cannot discuss a subject without trying to strengthen their weak argument with expletives.

Alcohol is the drug of choice for self indulgence largely because the law permits it. All drugs are for self indulgence, and the only way you can say Jesus did it and endorsed it is to have a closed mind in support of self-indulgence. The Bible never condones self-indulgence, much less self-indulgence in things which are physically toxic such as weed or alcohol and all other drugs people use in "moderation" or in excess which ruins the excuse of "moderation".
The OP was clear for discussing what the Bible says about intoxication substances. Alcohol is one of many intoxicants used by people to indulge themselves. There is pleasure in sin for a season, and that little bit of not being sober and only "moderately" drunk sure feels good sometimes. It's sin. The Bible is clear on it. You have made up your mind to go your own way in the matter, and that is your choice.

Alcohol is be far the most damaging drug in the world because of it's worldwide tolerance under law. Your endorsement of "moderate" self indulgence in drugs like alcohol adds to the damage. You can do it as long as the law permits, but to say the Bible teaches you to do it and Jesus is your example...that is much more than a stretch, and it's only self serving at best and at worse supporting the industrialization of a vice which has destroyed far more lives than can be counted any more than the stars can be counted.

Please refrain from using expletives as you try to make a point, even when your point is wrong. It does not help your argument.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

You have yet to address the issue of what people were to do PRIOR to having the tools to keep juices from becoming alcoholic in certain climates ( hint same reason that people cured meat. You have also yet to address the issue of drinking alcohol when there is no safe drinking water ( another common reason for 100s of years. If the words of God do not change and those facts are true ( that is the fact that people used it to preserve and as safe alrertive to water; both cannot be true that God does not allow alcohol, but yet the only way for His people to have passover for YEARS with the grapes picked MUCH earlier was in alcoholic form.

You don't want to hear it. All you want to hear is "enjoy indulging yourself in moderation with intoxicants." It's not in the Bible to do that. What you are endorsing using alcohol for is condemned by the Bible as self-indulgent. Your argument is self-supporting and not open to contrary discussion. There has been more than enough in this thread for you to read if you are open to God's guidance in the matter and willing to deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Jesus.......oh yeah, I forgot, most of the people opposing the OP claim they are following Jesus in self-indulgence of only being 1 percent drunk rather than 100 percent drunk and claiming you know where the line of being drunk is crossed when in reality that line is crossed the moment you indulge yourself in intoxication of drugs like alcohol or weed or meth or whatever your drug of choice might be.

 

[Albion]

Dear Mr. , you are the only one trying to damn here.

Hmm. I do have a name; I'm not damning anyone or anything; I certainly am not the one who tried to change the subject by claiming that moderate drinking of wine is the same as using hard drugs; and -- BTW-- you misquoted me by attributing parts of someone else's post to me.

So when you get set, you can try again.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Nonsense. Christ drank wine--that's recorded in Scripture. And he made some high-quality wine himself for the guests at the wedding in Cana--that's recorded in Scripture. We recommended, even, commanded, that his followers use it in the celebration of the Lord's Supper. There is no doubt that a judicious use of alcohol was not only approved of by him but used by him.

QUOTE]

Do all Anglicans teach that Jesus was a "social" drunk, moderately drinking but not falling down drunk and puking on Himself? Like the OP stated, most Baptists churches teach total abstinence in line with God's word which is always against self-indulgence and always for self-control. The two don't mix..the moment you self indulge with "moderation" as your excuse, you have abandoned self-control because the intoxicant you receive in your body, be it weed or alcohol or meth or heroine or whatever, changes you physically and you do not have to power to prevent that change. In fact, the change generally seems pleasurable and that is why people give themselves over to it and let it rule in their bodies...it feels good. Some people just can't get enough of it. I have known a lot of drunks who in public appear to be social drinkers, but everybody close to them knows they have a serious bad habit with drinking. The same is true for many who use other drugs like alcohol, namely week, coke, meth, whatever
Uh huh, sure, and when Jesus was a little tipsy, Mary Magdeline sure looked good and He fathered children by her. It's in the Divinci Code if you want to buy it. I don't buy any of it, and I don't buy "moderation" as an excuse for self-indulgence in intoxication of any drug including alcohol

 

[Hammster]

It's easy to be legalistic. You just find something you think is sinful, don't do it, demand everyone else do it, and ignore any arguments against your position. Notice I said ignore. If those who think the bible teaches abstinence had a valid argument, they would not shy away from the arguments presented by those making a balanced scriptural argument.

 

[Albion]

Do all Anglicans teach that Jesus was a "social" drunk....

I don't know any Anglicans who teach that, no.

the OP stated, most Baptists churches teach total abstinence....

Many do, that's true.

always for self-control.

We're all in favor of that.

 

[JM]

Quotes below, my commen in brackets:

Did you know grape juice was “invented” by a devout Christian so church-goers could take the Lord’s Supper without touching a drop of alcohol?

A New York doctor named Thomas Welch (that’s right, the founder of Welch’s Grape Juice) was a devoted Methodist and prohibitionist. Welch was the first to apply the newly developed process of pasteurization to grape juice, so his pro-prohibition church could practice what it preached when it took communion.

What was Welch’s motivation? In addition to being a doctor and dentist, Welch was a Methodist minister and a staunch prohibitionist. Welch lived in the day of the Women’s Christian Temperance Union (est. 1873) and Carrie Nation, the six-foot-tall, hatchet-wielding minister’s wife who launched her crusade against saloons in the 1890s. Welch’s son, Charles Welch, said his father “invented” grape juice “out of a passion to serve God by helping his church to give its communion as the fruit of the vine instead of the cup of devils.” In other words, Welch’s grape juice made holy communion holier. (How did ignoring the biblical command for the invention of man make it "holier?" Dumb...just dumb.)

Churches were slow to give up centuries of tradition and, as at least some saw it, the instructions of the Lord Himself, by switching from wine to grape juice.

Quotes from Welch's Site:

Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch launches the processed fruit juice industry when he successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an “unfermented sacramental wine” for fellow church parishioners in Vineland, N.J.

_____________________________________________

Why are Fundies so against learning? Why can’t they accept they practice an unbiblical tradition that is about 100 years old contravening the biblical mandate for WINE?


Not only that…their tradition was based in Feminism and the idea that one could be holier from abstaining denying the biblical idea of inherent sin.
Fundamentalists need to repent over this issue.


Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Grape juice IS WINE. It just has no alcohol in it.
Vingear is fermented grape juice.
Alcoholic wine and other drinks is poison.

Well..some people refuse to see, I think they might just be drunk. If you wanna argue, take it up with God. Im not hanging round someone who keeps crying for their bottle. You see grown men, and they just drink alcohol like fish, as if theyve never been weaned.

This is too funny. Please be serious when illustrating truth. Being funny can make people mad when they see that you enjoy supporting the OP. Sometimes when people feel mad, they believe some intoxication will sooth them and we don't want to send anybody off into a bender.

 

[JM]

This is too funny. Please be serious when illustrating truth. Being funny can make people mad when they see that you enjoy supporting the OP. Sometimes when people feel mad, they believe some intoxication will sooth them and we don't want to send anybody off into a bender.

Repent of your traditions Joe. Repent for teaching false doctrine.

Wine and grape juice are two different drinks. Wine is fermented. You use a juice and call it wine.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[SaintJoeNow]

The OP

You have yet to address the issue of what people were to do PRIOR to having the tools to keep juices from becoming alcoholic in certain climates ( hint same reason that people cured meat. You have also yet to address the issue of drinking alcohol when there is no safe drinking water ( another common reason for 100s of years. If the words of God do not change and those facts are true ( that is the fact that people used it to preserve and as safe alrertive to water; both cannot be true that God does not allow alcohol, but yet the only way for His people to have passover for YEARS with the grapes picked MUCH earlier was in alcoholic form.[/QUOTE
QUOTE]

The OP and my supporting posts, and the supporting posts of others, covers it. You are using your argument to excuse self-indulgence of intoxication. It does not require a point by point argument to answer your objections to the OP. When you are looking at the issue with a closed mind, you will reject any argument supporting the Bible teaching of holiness, sobriety, purity, perfection and how that applies to "moderate" self-indulgent intoxicating substances.

If you want to look at your argument a different way, you can. If you won't, you won't and I will only be wasting my time chasing you around on your rabbit trails while you run away from everything supporting the OP here. I used to run those same rabbit trails like you in opposition to this OP, got tired of it, I was wrong, and I'm not interested in wasting time on those rabbit trails. Sorry.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You don't want to hear it. All you want to hear is "enjoy indulging yourself in moderation with intoxicants." It's not in the Bible to do that. What you are endorsing using alcohol for is condemned by the Bible as self-indulgent. Your argument is self-supporting and not open to contrary discussion. There has been more than enough in this thread for you to read if you are open to God's guidance in the matter and willing to deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Jesus.......oh yeah, I forgot, most of the people opposing the OP claim they are following Jesus in self-indulgence of only being 1 percent drunk rather than 100 percent drunk and claiming you know where the line of being drunk is crossed when in reality that line is crossed the moment you indulge yourself in intoxication of drugs like alcohol or weed or meth or whatever your drug of choice might be.

You cannot be 1% drunk. By that logic I should not use certain mouthwash or even eat certain things because shocker there may be a little fermented sugar. Trust me, one can drink and you not know it unless you either get right up on them or KNOW they were served.

 

[Hammster]

You cannot be 1% drunk. By that logic I should not use certain mouthwash or even eat certain things because shocker there may be a little fermented sugar. Trust me, one can drink and you not know it unless you either get right up on them or KNOW they were served.

Don't get suckered into moralistic arguments. He has been shown to be lacking in biblical arguments. That should be enough.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

You cannot be 1% drunk. By that logic I should not use certain mouthwash or even eat certain things because shocker there may be a little fermented sugar. Trust me, one can drink and you not know it unless you either get right up on them or KNOW they were served.

The moment you indulge, you have drunk and because the intoxicant is in you, you are drunk...be it 1 percent, ten percent, fifty percent, seventy percent. The line of being drunk is crossed the moment you indulge yourself for the pleasures of intoxicants. Your sobriety is gone with the first sip of self-indulgence, even if it only makes you 1/10 of 1 percent drunk. Drunk is drunk in any percentage. Let's be real. You are sober or not sober. If you are not sober, you are drunk even if the law says you are blowing below .06 or whatever arbitrary line you excuse yourself by to pretend you are not drunk. Not sober is drunk. One self-indulgent sip of intoxication drug ends sobriety. You'll never stop drinking, you will never be free of it if you wont' draw the line of sobriety at zero indulgence. That is the ONLY real line. "Moderation" is fake lines to excuse self-indulgence and God is always against self indulgence. He calls it fornication, going after strange gods, forsaking His love for the love of things outside of Himself.

God knows if they are being self-indulgent or not. That's the problem in defending "moderate" indulgence of intoxicating substances like weed or alcohol for the pleasures they bring. God knows. I really prefer to believe that people are smarter than to allow themselves to be intoxicated by alcohol from mouthwash, radiator fluid, rotten grapes, or any other place....sadly, people prove me wrong far too often.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

You cannot be 1% drunk. By that logic I should not use certain mouthwash or even eat certain things because shocker there may be a little fermented sugar. Trust me, one can drink and you not know it unless you either get right up on them or KNOW they were served.

What are you using mouthwash for? Don't you know it's poison and you are not supposed to swallow it? It's made for killing germs in your mouth, not for getting drunk, not for receiving as self-indulgent pleasure of it's poisoning effects. Do you see the difference in using mouthwash to control bad breath and using mouthwash as self-indulgence for pleasure which intoxicants might make you feel? I understand that many drunks resort to drinking mouthwash when they feel too much desire for being drunk, but that doesn't make it right to use mouthwash for anything other than to control bad breath.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I guess Anglicans teach Jesus was a winebibber and glutton exactly as the ungodly people accused him of being. I'm really not too familiar with Anglican teaching, and if it's common in Anglican circles to portray Jesus as a social drinker so being a Christian is all about being a good person and a nice social drinker, they won't want me at their church because I would say based on their teaching they are making a mockery our of our Lord by portraying him as a winebibber and a glutton exactly as those who hated Him accused Him. I can understand if people want to believe Budda had a beer belly and it makes him jolly, but can't understand why people want to paint Jesus that way when they are Christians...I know a lot of Christians do it, and I do not keep fellowship with Christians who think that way.

 

[dogs4thewin]

What are you using mouthwash for? Don't you know it's poison and you are not supposed to swallow it? It's made for killing germs in your mouth, not for getting drunk, not for receiving as self-indulgent pleasure of it's poisoning effects. Do you see the difference in using mouthwash to control bad breath and using mouthwash as self-indulgence for pleasure which intoxicants might make you feel? I understand that many drunks resort to drinking mouthwash when they feel too much desire for being drunk, but that doesn't make it right to use mouthwash for anything other than to control bad breath.

People do swallow it sometimes just a little and it CAN register on a machine.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I guess Anglicans teach Jesus was a winebibber and glutton exactly as the ungodly people accused him of being. I'm really not too familiar with Anglican teaching, and if it's common in Anglican circles to portray Jesus as a social drinker so being a Christian is all about being a good person and a nice social drinker, they won't want me at their church because I would say based on their teaching they are making a mockery our of our Lord by portraying him as a winebibber and a glutton exactly as those who hated Him accused Him. I can understand if people want to believe Budda had a beer belly and it makes him jolly, but can't understand why people want to paint Jesus that way when they are Christians...I know a lot of Christians do it, and I do not keep fellowship with Christians who think that way.

Where in the Bible does it say that we may not drink keeping it mind one can drink and NOT get DRUNK.