Christianity works. Case closed?

[doubtingmerle]

Ok, you were down and out, you tried Christianity, and your life is better. Have your proven Christianity is better?

Well no, not exactly. If you get 100 people to commit to a faith, it is not unreasonable to think that half will get better and half worse. If the half that get better credit the change to the faith, you have built the numbers for your faith.

And your odds of improving might be better than 50%. After all, if you seek a religious change when you are down and out, then the law of regression toward the mean says you have a better chance of improving than getting worse. See Regression toward the mean - Wikipedia .

Also, when adopting a new faith, many had been at a place where one's life needed improvement. They did something about it. So what does that prove? It shows that doing something about it is better than doing nothing. Psychologists have found that the mere act of therapy, any kind of therapy, finds people improving. If one does nothing more than try, it can help. Does this prove that everyone has won and that all must have prizes? See https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...507/everyone-has-won-and-all-must-have-prizes

Finally, faith groups offer a lot of incidentals that can be great for your mental health. Social gatherings, participation together in a group ritual, singing together, shared friendships within the community, and other benefits are great to have. But you can have these with any religion. It is sorta like the old recipe for horse and canary pie--one horse, one canary! OK, you may like the pie, but it might not be because of the canary (your particular faith). It have more to do with the horse (all the other social benefits.)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ok, you were down and out, you tried Christianity, and your life is better. Have your proven Christianity is better?

Well no, not exactly. If you get 100 people to commit to a faith, it is not unreasonable to think that half will get better and half worse. If the half that get better credit the change to the faith, you have built the numbers for your faith.

And your odds of improving might be better than 50%. After all, if you seek a religious change when you are down and out, then the law of regression toward the mean says you have a better chance of improving than getting worse. See Regression toward the mean - Wikipedia .

Also, when adopting a new faith, many had been at a place where one's life needed improvement. They did something about it. So what does that prove? It shows that doing something about it is better than doing nothing. Psychologists have found that the mere act of therapy, any kind of therapy, finds people improving. If one does nothing more than try, it can help. Does this prove that everyone has won and that all must have prizes? See https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...507/everyone-has-won-and-all-must-have-prizes

Finally, faith groups offer a lot of incidentals that can be great for your mental health. Social gatherings, participation together in a group ritual, singing together, shared friendships within the community, and other benefits are great to have. But you can have these with any religion. It is sorta like the old recipe for horse and canary pie--one horse, one canary! OK, you may like the pie, but it might not be because of the canary (your particular faith). It have more to do with the horse (all the other social benefits.)

Have I proven to myself that Christianity has made my life better? Maybe. Maybe not.

But I'm not clear on the exact locus of the inquiry in your OP. Are you wondering if I've proven it to myself, OR is it that you think I need to 'prove' this [somehow] to the rest of the world in order for me to continue on in my faith? What proof do you expect in this regard anyway?

You skeptics need to stop with the requests for proof when you don't even seem to be clear on exactly what proof would (or should) amount to other than to assert that what's evident to a Christian isn't something satisfying to you [thus far].

 

[public hermit]

Ok, you were down and out, you tried Christianity, and your life is better. Have your proven Christianity is better

I don't think so. My life has improved, possibly for reasons similar to those you've mentioned.

To my best assessment, Christianity is only proven if and when Christ returns, the dead are raised, and he establishes the kingdom as promised. Faith and hope point towards a terminus that once fulfilled ends the need for faith and hope. From that point on, love will be the only one of the three that remains.

If the lives of Christians improve it is because they are, to some extent, living according to a kingdom that has been promised will be consummated. That being said, living according to that kingdom can also bring suffering because the ways of God's kingdom are so contrary to the ways of this world.

What might function more as evidence of Christianity is the lives of those who are at peace and love others in the spite of the fact that their lives are full of trials and suffering.

But again, the definitive proof is the final fulfillment of the promises. Presumably, that will be proof for everyone, bar none, for all shall see it, every knee shall bend, and confess that it is true, i.e. Christ is Lord. We'll see.

 

[cvanwey]

I don't think so. My life has improved, possibly for reasons similar to those you've mentioned.

To my best assessment, Christianity is only proven if and when Christ returns, the dead are raised, and he establishes the kingdom as promised. Faith and hope point towards a terminus that once fulfilled ends the need for faith and hope. From that point on, love will be the only one of the three that remains.

If the lives of Christians improve it is because they are, to some extent, living according to a kingdom that has been promised will be consummated. That being said, living according to that kingdom can also bring suffering because the ways of God's kingdom are so contrary to the ways of this world.

What might function more as evidence of Christianity is the lives of those who are at peace and love others in the spite of the fact that their lives are full of trials and suffering.

But again, the definitive proof is the final fulfillment of the promises. Presumably, that will be proof for everyone, bar none, for all shall see it, every knee shall bend, and confess that it is true, i.e. Christ is Lord. We'll see.

And you stated elsewhere, which also begs the question here, 'what is He waiting for?'

 

[public hermit]

And you stated elsewhere, which also begs the question here, 'what is He waiting for?'

I consider that a legitimate question. But, not a defeater. God's timing is a mystery to me, but I'm not privy to all God's reasons and don't assume I should be.

 

[cvanwey]

I consider that a legitimate question. But, not a defeater. God's timing is a mystery to me, but I'm not privy to all God's reasons and don't assume I should be.

You must admit though... It's a great unfalsifiable argument, for the one whom asserts...

(i.e.): "Oh, He will come back, don't you worry."

 

[public hermit]

You must admit though... It's a great unfalsifiable argument, for the one whom asserts...

(i.e.): "Oh, He will come back, don't you worry."

I admit that. It's called faith, cvanwey. It's not for everyone.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Have I proven to myself that Christianity has made my life better? Maybe. Maybe not.

But I'm not clear on the exact locus of the inquiry in your OP. Are you wondering if I've proven it to myself, OR is it that you think I need to 'prove' this [somehow] to the rest of the world in order for me to continue on in my faith? What proof do you expect in this regard anyway?

You skeptics need to stop with the requests for proof when you don't even seem to be clear on exactly what proof would (or should) amount to other than to assert that what's evident to a Christian isn't something satisfying to you [thus far].

Ah, your experience is good enough proof for you.

And others experience a different religion, and that experience is enough proof for them.

Should i conclude that everyone has won, and all must have prizes?

 

[doubtingmerle]

To my best assessment, Christianity is only proven if and when Christ returns, the dead are raised, and he establishes the kingdom as promised. Faith and hope point towards a terminus that once fulfilled ends the need for faith and hope.

Ah, and if I started my own religion, asking you to give all your life to it, and telling you that my evidence will come someday, would you sign up?

 

[public hermit]

Ah, and if I started my own religion, asking you to give all your life to it, and telling you that my evidence will come someday, would you sign up?

You misunderstood. I don't believe because of the promise. I don't believe because of evidence. When it comes to my faith I am not an evidentialist. I came to believe, I'm not sure exactly how (grace and the Holy Spirit), and because I believe I hope for the promise. At any rate, your caricature of my faith experience is inaccurate.

What I was saying is that the definitive proof is the consummation of all things. If it happens, it will be proven. If you must have proof, then patience is in order.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ah, your experience is good enough proof for you.

And others experience a different religion, and that experience is enough proof for them.

Should i conclude that everyone has won, and all must have prizes?

As a critical thinker myself, I wouldn't expect you to 'believe' merely based on what I might share in a Christian type testimony (if I had a testimony to share in some kind of more typified evangelical form---which I don't). However, what I would expect you to do is be honest with me (or any Christian) about 1) whether or not you're actually and fully interested in Christianity as a possible truth to which you'd submit, and 2) whether or not you're willing to do the hard work of attempting to live the Christian life, on the one hand, along with attempting to understand Christianity on Christian terms, on the other hand, and 3) whether or not you're willing to challenge your own Epistemological and Hermeneutical assumptions [assumptions that might be holding you back IF in fact you are a true Seeker].

If you're open to these conditions, and you seem to infer that other folks should be vested with the allowance to express their point of view without being automatically downed, then you should remain open to various angles that various Christians may offer you to consider further.

 

[doubtingmerle]

As a critical thinker myself, I wouldn't expect you to 'believe' merely based on what I might share in a Christian type testimony (if I had a testimony to share in some kind of more typified evangelical form---which I don't).

That would be anecdotal evidence. As you point out, anecdotal evidence does not count much.

But on the other hand, if there is a consistent trend of a better life that is statistically significant, that argument has merit.

However, what I would expect you to do is be honest with me (or any Christian) about 1) whether or not you're actually and fully interested in Christianity as a possible truth to which you'd submit, and 2) whether or not you're willing to do the hard work of attempting to live the Christian life, on the one hand, along with attempting to understand Christianity on Christian terms, on the other hand, and 3) whether or not you're willing to challenge your own Epistemological and Hermeneutical assumptions [assumptions that might be holding you back IF in fact you are a true Seeker].

Nobody should ask a personal question on the Internet unless they are willing to answer it themselves. So I will let you go first. I'll change the wording a little so it applies to you.

However, what I would expect you to do is be honest with any Muslim about 1) whether or not you're actually and fully interested in Islam as a possible truth to which you'd submit, and 2) whether or not you're willing to do the hard work of attempting to live the Islamic life, on the one hand, along with attempting to understand Islam on Islamic terms, on the other hand, and 3) whether or not you're willing to challenge your own Epistemological and Hermeneutical assumptions [assumptions that might be holding you back IF in fact you are a true Seeker].​

 

[mama2one]

Ok, you were down and out, you tried Christianity, and your life is better. Have your proven Christianity is better?

actually, after becoming Christians, it seems many are tested OR the devil is after them

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't consider this a good defeater of Christianity, being that there are potentially good pragmatic arguments for religion (for instance, as given by the American Pragmatist, William James).

However, Christianity, as more than just an abstraction, doesn't meet everyone's needs, especially in the modern world. It asks too much of people, and I sort of see a reverse Pascal's Wager here. What if the Aborigines of Australia or the Americas have it right? What if a Dharmic religion, or a humanistic religion based on natural law, is a better reflection of reality? Then I'd be throwing away potentially a better life here on earth (one full of greater integrity and inner peace), and maybe even a good afterlife, for a religious narrative that I think is open to alot of alternative explanations and/or is improbable.

 

[Tone]

Ok, you were down and out, you tried Christianity, and your life is better. Have your proven Christianity is better?

What is your criteria for better and/or worse?

 

[doubtingmerle]

What is your criteria for better and/or worse?

I was thinking "better" in the sense of being more fulfilling, happier, and satisfying.

 

[Tone]

I was thinking "better" in the sense of being more fulfilling, happier, and satisfying.

Oh, in that case, yes!