Christianity is synonymous with Messianic

[hamashiachagape]

I do not mean in regards to the movements. The terms however are the same. There has never been commanded to be a division between Christians and Messianics. Christians/Messianics I agree were always meant to be followers of Yeshua and the Torah!

Let me show you what I mean. We can go directly to Numbers 15:13-16, well before any of this started to see who is correct. 13 " 'Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD : 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.' "

Anyone following the above commandment is following correctly. Its easy to demonstrate the similarities of these verses and Romans 11. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christians, as we know them today, are not saved. I do not subscribe to that belief, and neither did Yeshua declare this. He said that those who teach against the Torah would be found to be least in the kingdom of heaven. This is a matter of obedience, not salvation.

I don't know why there has been so much confusion over the years between Jews and Christians. I believe its important to fill the roles that we are called to. Jews, don't stop being Jews, and Gentiles don't stop being Gentiles. We are to follow the Torah in one accord with the Lord though. If we had understood this from the beginning, there would be no Jew and no Christian movements. Thats the one thing I see lacking and it has developed within both movements as a dividing wall of enmity. What we have are two groups of people who have gone to opposite extremes. We have Christian halakah and Jewish halakah. Neither one of them can be applied to the Bible. So my calling to both Christians and Jews today, break down the traditions, as they do not apply to the Bible and turn back to God, backsliding children.

 

[xDenax]

You seem a bit on the arrogant side, assuming you know better than anyone else. The impression I got was that you are young, are you not? Just out of college?

 

[hamashiachagape]

You seem a bit on the arrogant side, assuming you know better than anyone else. The impression I got was that you are young, are you not? Just out of college?

I have studied both sides, both the "early church fathers" and the Councils, and I have studied the Talmudic writings, and parts of the Midrash and Zohar. Do I know everything? No, but I can see some glaring contradictions between what the Talmud, and the early church fathers declare and what the Bible claims.

I might also mention that the Talmud puts up walls against the Gentile people. The obvious same can be said about the early church fathers and the Jews.

 

[Lulav]

Yes, you are bold as a new member to come in here preaching and chastising. May I ask who are you to call us "Backsliding Children"? You should go read my Nicolatians post.

I don't know why there has been so much confusion over the years between Jews and Christians. I believe its important to fill the roles that we are called to. Jews, don't stop being Jews, and Gentiles don't stop being Gentiles. We are to follow the Torah in one accord with the Lord though. If we had understood this from the beginning, there would be no Jew and no Christian movements. Thats the one thing I see lacking and it has developed within both movements as a dividing wall of enmity. What we have are two groups of people who have gone to opposite extremes. We have Christian halakah and Jewish halakah. Neither one of them can be applied to the Bible. So my calling to both Christians and Jews today, break down the traditions, as they do not apply to the Bible and turn back to God, backsliding children.

The reason there is such a schism is because Paul taught that Jesus taught the law was done away with, and you won't get too many Jews to agree with that, only those in the dark about what G-d really says. That is the schism. This is not what Yeshua taught but what the church has made it look like he taught by using mostly pauls writings and calling it the word of G-d.

The original Apsotles and disciples were always of one accord. When the gentiles came in, it has never been that way, and why you should ask, who threw the monkey wrench in the Good works started by Yeshua's followers?

 

[hamashiachagape]

Yes, you are bold as a new member to come in here preaching and chastising. May I ask who are you to call us "Backsliding Children"? You should go read my Nicolatians post.

Those who do not follow the Bible are backsliding children. Who are you to go against what the Word says?

The reason there is such a schism is because Paul taught that Jesus taught the law was done away with, and you won't get too many Jews to agree with that, only those in the dark about what G-d really says. That is the schism. This is not what Yeshua taught but what the church has made it look like he taught by using mostly pauls writings and calling it the word of G-d.

The original Apsotles and disciples were always of one accord. When the gentiles came in, it has never been that way, and why you should ask, who threw the monkey wrench in the Good works started by Yeshua's followers?

Oy! Where does Paul teach that the Torah was done away with? (Ha Nomos) Have you ever once read what Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Origen or Tertullian were stating in their books? They went contrary to the writings of Paul.

Ignatius, for example, declares there is no advantage to being a Jew. Paul declares there is in Romans 3:1-2.

Ignatius puts up a barrier against Judaism, by declaring that one either be a Jew or a Christian. Paul declares that there are 10,000s of Jews who were of the Messiah and zealous for the Torah.

Origen calls the Jews Barbarians, and proclaims that the Greeks were the knowledgeable ones. In Paul's encounter with the Greeks in Acts 17 it is the appearance of the Greeks who are the less knowledgeable ones.

You see how Christians have steered in the opposite direction? It is not because of the writings of Paul. It is the fault of the Gentile and of the "early church fathers" that there is such a dividing wall of enmity between the Christian and the Jew today. The Talmud, much can be said the same. There were some prayers that were very anti-Yeshua prayed in the synagogues. There are teachings that God is to follow the Rabbinical laws in the Talmud. The problem of the Gentiles role in Judaism was not explained within the Talmud, and forced a lot of Jews to deny Gentile contact. It is heavily predicated on human tradition either way you go. Ignatius enforced a belief that one must equate the bishop to God.

That just for starters, lets not even get into the anti-semitism of the early church. What we have is a great big giant mess on our hands.

 

[xDenax]

I do not mean in regards to the movements. The terms however are the same.

Could you explain this please? Messianic can refer to a multitude of things.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Could you explain this please? Messianic can refer to a multitude of things.

Very true. I can certainly understand this concern since Orthodox Jews are definitely Messianic, in the sense they are expecting the Messiah. Followers of Yeshua ha Mashiach, in this sense. The title was more directed at Christians and Messianic Jews, but I can certainly see the confusion it might cause through the views of an Orthodox. By the way, I'd love to discuss with you why I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah. I'd love to hear your objections.

 

[Lulav]

I have studied both sides, both the "early church fathers" and the Councils, and I have studied the Talmudic writings, and parts of the Midrash and Zohar. Do I know everything? No, but I can see some glaring contradictions between what the Talmud, and the early church fathers declare and what the Bible claims.

I might also mention that the Talmud puts up walls against the Gentile people. The obvious same can be said about the early church fathers and the Jews.

Really? for such a studied person and of all those writings I would think you would know what a Nazarite vow entails, but you have shown on the other thread in your zealous defense of Paul that you really don't. Your understanding is still very deeply colored by Christian teaching. You have quite a way to go to come out of it fully. You instead are trying to reconcile it and it really can't, truthfully anyway, be reconciled.

 

[xDenax]

By the way, I'd love to discuss with you why I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah. I'd love to hear your objections.

With me? You'd probably just be disappointed by my secular ideas.

 

[hamashiachagape]

With me? You'd probably just be disappointed by my secular ideas.

Nonetheless, I'd still love to talk with you about them. I wouldn't be disappointed by anything you have to say. It is not my job to judge you by my standards.

 

[Lulav]

Oy! Where does Paul teach that the Torah was done away with? (Ha Nomos) Have you ever once read what Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Origen or Tertullian were stating in their books? They went contrary to the writings of Paul.

Ignatius, for example, declares there is no advantage to being a Jew. Paul declares there is in Romans 3:1-2.

Ignatius puts up a barrier against Judaism, by declaring that one either be a Jew or a Christian. Paul declares that there are 10,000s of Jews who were of the Messiah and zealous for the Torah.

Origen calls the Jews Barbarians, and proclaims that the Greeks were the knowledgeable ones. In Paul's encounter with the Greeks in Acts 17 it is the appearance of the Greeks who are the less knowledgeable ones.

You see how Christians have steered in the opposite direction? It is not because of the writings of Paul. It is the fault of the Gentile and of the "early church fathers" that there is such a dividing wall of enmity between the Christian and the Jew today. The Talmud, much can be said the same. There were some prayers that were very anti-Yeshua prayed in the synagogues. There are teachings that God is to follow the Rabbinical laws in the Talmud. The problem of the Gentiles role in Judaism was not explained within the Talmud, and forced a lot of Jews to deny Gentile contact. It is heavily predicated on human tradition either way you go. Ignatius enforced a belief that one must equate the bishop to God.

That just for starters, lets not even get into the anti-semitism of the early church. What we have is a great big giant mess on our hands.

I'm not even going to bother arguing with you over Church fathers and such, yes I have read through them all mostly over the years, but you are still very mixed up. I think you are reading too much, too quickly and not giving it time to mesh with what has been in your brain for so long. Really, it takes time to wash all these things away to see and understand what really was going on. I am not trying to discourage you but you need to go slower, absorb bit by bit, those who go too fast always end up going off the deep end. This has been my experience in watching anyone come to the truth of who Yeshua really was and what he taught.

Take your time, give you brain time to process it.

Paul declares that there are 10,000s of Jews who were of the Messiah and zealous for the Torah.

No, my dear one, that was James and all the elders at Jerusalem, see this is what happens when you read too much too quickly, confusion sets in.



18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads (1,000 upon 10 thousands) of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law

Not Paul.

 

[Lulav]

Very true. I can certainly understand this concern since Orthodox Jews are definitely Messianic, in the sense they are expecting the Messiah. Followers of Yeshua ha Mashiach, in this sense. The title was more directed at Christians and Messianic Jews, but I can certainly see the confusion it might cause through the views of an Orthodox. By the way, I'd love to discuss with you why I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah. I'd love to hear your objections.

No Jew should be converted to Christianity, but it seems you believe that they should, why is that?

 

[hamashiachagape]

I'm not even going to bother arguing with you over Church fathers and such, yes I have read through them all mostly over the years, but you are still very mixed up. I think you are reading too much, too quickly and not giving it time to mesh with what has been in your brain for so long. Really, it takes time to wash all these things away to see and understand what really was going on. I am not trying to discourage you but you need to go slower, absorb bit by bit, those who go to fast always end up going off the deep end. This has been my experience in watching anyone come to the truth of who Yeshua really was and what he taught.




No, my dear one, that was James and all the elders at Jerusalem, see this is what happens when you read too much too quickly, confusion sets in.



18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads (1,000 upon 10 thousands) of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law

Not Paul.

Yes it was James speaking to Paul. I had that backwards. Nonetheless, you have failed to demonstrate how Paul was deviating from the ministry he was called to.

Galatians 2 goes contrary to what you're trying to lay claims to.

"7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,[a] just as Peter had been to the Jews.[b] 8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9James, Peter[c] and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Paul Opposes Peter

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. "

Every time "through the law" is mentioned here, it does not refer to the Torah.

 

[Lulav]

You see how Christians have steered in the opposite direction? It is not because of the writings of Paul. It is the fault of the Gentile and of the "early church fathers" that there is such a dividing wall of enmity between the Christian and the Jew today.

And whose teachings and writings do you think they got this from?

 

[Lulav]

Yes it was James speaking to Paul. I had that backwards. Nonetheless, you have failed to demonstrate how Paul was deviating from the ministry he was called to.

Galatians 2 goes contrary to what you're trying to lay claims to.

"7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,[a] just as Peter had been to the Jews.[b] 8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9James, Peter[c] and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Paul Opposes Peter

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. "

Every time "through the law" is mentioned here, it does not refer to the Torah.

And how about you define what ministry Paul was called to? I would love to talk about that. Why do you think that Yeshua found it necessary to hire on someone else after he had spent so much time with his students for 3 1/2 years? He taught them day and night, he prayed for them (see John) and he expected them and only them to take his words to the Jews, the Samaritans and to the ends of the world (nations).

12 for 12 tribes
and
1 for 69 other nations?

Even the mathematics don't add up

Picking Paul to spread his word would be like choosing Hitler in the 20th century, who would buy that? But many did revere Hitler, thinking he was the next best thing to sliced bread.

Bottom line, What was the need that Yeshua would have for another apostle?

AND in Revelation why doesn't Yeshua say that the foundations of the new Jerusalem have 13 or 14 or 15 layers, but instead, he speaks of the 12.

12 is perfect government
12 is rebellion

I think that Bullinger said something to that effect.

 

[Desert Rose]

No Jew should be converted to Christianity

i would argue this statement. I would love to have my relatives and friends all converted to christianity. Or to messianic judaism. As long as they truly believe Yeshua (or Jesus). To be honest to me its just, denominational differences. in essence they are the same.

You are not saying that Christians are not saved ? That in some ways they are second class believers to you, dear, right? Just because they eat shrimp scampi or dont celebrate Pesach?

Also would you agree that thre are christians that are much more spiritually mature and pleasing to Him then you ( or I, for that matter, not picking on you, just trying to figure out your point of view) ?

Please,make your reply as big as you wish, but definitely say yes or no to both questions. Thanks!

 

[hamashiachagape]

And how about you define what ministry Paul was called to? I would love to talk about that. Why do you think that Yeshua found it necessary to hire on someone else after he had spent so much time with his students for 3 1/2 years? He taught them day and night, he prayed for them (see John) and he expected them and only them to take his words to the Jews, the Samaritans and to the ends of the world (nations).

12 for 12 tribes
and
1 for 69 other nations?

Even the mathematics don't add up

Picking Paul to spread his word would be like choosing Hitler in the 20th century, who would buy that? But many did revere Hitler, thinking he was the next best thing to sliced bread.

Bottom line, What was the need that Yeshua would have for another apostle?

AND in Revelation why doesn't Yeshua say that the foundations of the new Jerusalem have 13 or 14 or 15 layers, but instead, he speaks of the 12.

12 is perfect government
12 is rebellion

I think that Bullinger said something to that effect.

You have a point on the Revelation part. Yeshua does say that the foundations of Jerusalem have 12, which are the 12 tribes of Israel, and that is indeed the physical Israel. One day, all of Israel will declare "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." When that happens, Yeshua returns to the Earth. But this doesn't mean, and Paul even declares this in Romans 11:17, that 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

This doesn't say "instead of" them. Their foundation is predicated upon the 12 tribes of Israel being saved. This is why they had better not boast on their engrafting. Sadly we do see this, even tho often blindly, happen today.

AHHHH, I see. So only the original apppointed disciples could spread the word? So that means, our mission today is null and void?
You need some back up documentation yourself. By your reasoning, the Lord DID choose Hitler. After all, it is in the Biblios. You are making mere assertions at this point. I on the other hand, prefer to rely upon Acts 9 "
Saul's Conversion

1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.
11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name." 15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

Now its your job to show me where Paul tells us not to follow the Torah. How are his statements contrary to the Torah. And before we get to this point, do you speak know anything about the Greek language?

On my behalf, I have no problem stating that this Torah thing is for both Jews and Gentiles after all.

 

[hamashiachagape]

i would argue this statement. I would love to have my relatives and friends all converted to christianity. Or to messianic judaism. As long as they truly believe Yeshua (or Jesus). To be honest to me its just, denominational differences. in essence they are the same.

You are not saying that Christians are not saved ? That in some ways they are second class believers to you, dear, right? Just because they eat shrimp scampi or dont celebrate Pesach?

Hence the dividing wall of enmity I discussed earlier. I agree all Christians are saved. But the obedience factor is what most Christians sects don't take into account. Christians should be doing these things, but don't, even according to Yeshua himself. As I extend to my Christian friends, if you love him, you will keep his commandments.

ON the other hand, I believe its interesting that Yeshua does not end it at "the nations" but rather extends the call to us to go to..yes the Jew first, but also to all the ends of the world. The statement by Lulav does not indicate this within the Greek language. Paul follows suit with the practice of going to the Jew first and then to the Gentile, extending the message to the Jew first as he states, then to the Gentile. He is there teaching the Gentile world what their purpose is. Even Numbers 15 extends the Torah and salvation to all who believe. The one, and ONLY one objective given to Gentiles throughout Romans 9-11 is to provoke the Jews to zealousness.

Also would you agree that thre are christians that are much more spiritually mature and pleasing to Him then you ( or I, for that matter, not picking on you, just trying to figure out your point of view) ?

Please,make your reply as big as you wish, but definitely say yes or no to both questions. Thanks!

I'd like to hear Lulav's reply to this. I do believe that there are more spiritually mature/obedient Christians than others out there.

 

[hamashiachagape]

And whose teachings and writings do you think they got this from?

The implementation that they go by obviously was not given to them by Paul, Peter, John or anybody else. I further see no hard evidence, and plenty based off of their writings to suggest that Paul, Peter, John, etc had absolutely 0 direct contact with the "early church fathers." I honestly consider Ignatius to be the father of the hellenized Christian movement.

 

[Chicken Little]

The reason there is such a schism is because Paul taught that Jesus taught the law was done away with, and you won't get too many Jews to agree with that, only those in the dark about what G-d really says. That is the schism. This is not what Yeshua taught but what the church has made it look like he taught by using mostly pauls writings and calling it the word of G-d.

sorry I got to add in here, sorry ... I know I don't belong.. but my dad lived in israel for ayear and I know most all of Lambs songs by heart. that should count for something.

I am in disagreement with that you think paul was teaching and not teaching.
we gentiles through christ are not under the regulations of the law. but you jews have not been since the vail was rent , since the temple was destroyed . you are not sacrificing cows and such for nearly 2000 years.. his blood did away with the regulations and all of the traditions of keeping the laws.. like the milk and meat thing as this law was made in fear of not looking like you were eating meat sacrificed to idols. we christians are not subject to other peoples laws made in fear..

now we have to keep the BIG 10 yes yes..... except Sabbath.. in that there is a blessing for keeping it and no curse for not keeping it. we are not under the curse of the blood laws , we are not under the curse of any laws, especially the curse and heavy burdens of traditions of men born in their fear.. those that were added to HIS laws. His blood bought the curses of the law and the traditions of men .
but his grace was in-acted to make sure we kept the big ten and the spirit of them! in all truth at every levels and in every part of our being.. no 'bloody pharisees" allowed, we have to keep them in all parts of our being.
I think you and most of christendom for that matter have mis-understood Paul's intent.
Paul and Jesus bring the laws down to two to three concept those God is serious as Hell about!!! we have to have no sexual immorality .. no one bonded to the bleachers.. and no foods offered to idols and we have to love our neighbor as our self and loving god is a given... but those two or three sum up the big ten pretty good.. proof we are saved is we have to keep them at every level of our being or we are in no way saved.
The law is a tutor to show us our sin, it is not and never was the answer for our sins.