Christianity is false, ontological proof

[RDawkins]

Dear Christians,

I am a newcomer, and agnostic atheist.

I hope that posting here will not break any rules, and if so, please do not think that it was due to bad intentions.

I recently read an ontological statement about Christianity, and would like your opinion on it.

Here it is :

"If Christianity is true, then Judaism is false
if Judaism is false, then Christianity has no basis.
So, Christianity is false."

Why would do you think such statement is false?

Thank you for your opinions. No flame, no troll. Best regards.

 

[JRSut1000]

That quote makes NO sense. Christianity has it's roots in Judaism after all! Now I will admit that much of Christianity has taken those roots and tried to discard them. Actually, Christianity was not meant to be a 'new religion', but rather a continuation into God's promises of redemption and salvation. He was renewing His covenant, not dumping the whole OT. God does not change who He is and He does not change His mind and those who miss out on that by replacement theology and making a new 'religion' out of it are really not udnerstanding the whole story!

 

[RDawkins]

So if I understand what you said (I will not get into the God's part as you seem to know how God behaves and I do not) :

Christianity has its roots into a religion (Judaism) which does not recognize Christianity basic principles (like Trinity, Jesus, and so on...).

So, Christianity tried to discard its roots in Judaism. Meaning that it develops its own roots (contradicting the fact it has roots in Judaism, and also the fact you said it is not a new religion).

Either it has roots in Judaism or it has not (it is a new religion), but Judaism does not take Christianity as something viable.

So, if Christianity has roots on Judaism, then the statement is true.

If Christianity has no roots in Judaism, then it is a new religion and most of what is thought about roots of Christianity into Judaism are erroneous...

So ... I don't get your point.

 

[Nanopants]

Your logic is over-simplified.

For one, Christianity does not teach that Judaism is false.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Secondly, Judaism teaches that the covenant which established Judaism was going to be replaced.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[razeontherock]

"If Christianity is true, then Judaism is false
if Judaism is false, then Christianity has no basis.
So, Christianity is false."

Why would do you think such statement is false?

The problem with your statement is that it fails to take into consideration the truth, which is that Judaism was true, and Jesus lived according to it; no element of Judaism was "falsified" until Christ's ascension. So the conclusion presented in your quote is woefully mislead.

 

[RDawkins]

The problem with your statement is that it fails to take into consideration the truth, which is that Judaism was true, and Jesus lived according to it; no element of Judaism was "falsified" until Christ's ascension. So the conclusion presented in your quote is woefully mislead.

But, according to Jewish theologists, the Christ is a false messiah.

So, if Judaism is true, as you clearly said, then Christianity is false, following the statement.

The statement, by itself, does not say that Judaism is true, it says nothing like that (it is focusing on Christianity).

If Judaism teaches that a new covenant will be held, it does not prove that Christianity is true (it, worst, brings more evidence to proving that the basis are erroneous)...

 

[Nanopants]

But, according to Jewish theologists, the Christ is a false messiah.

Does the definition of Judaism depend upon Jewish theologians?

If Judaism teaches that a new covenant will be held, it does not prove that Christianity is true (it, worst, brings more evidence to proving that the basis are erroneous)...

You're right that this does not prove Christianity, but it does disprove your logic.

 

[RDawkins]

Does the definition of Judaism depend upon Jewish theologians?

It should: the very same applies to Christianity which has been built by theologians.

You're right that this does not prove Christianity, but it does disprove your logic.

So because Judaism teaches that a new version of it will arise, it means that Judaism is false, so Christianity has no basis. Or I misunderstood your point.

How would it disprove the statement?

 

[razeontherock]

But, according to Jewish theologists, the Christ is a false messiah.

Yes. Why? Because not all is fulfilled. Which Christianity agrees with

So, if Judaism is true, as you clearly said, then Christianity is false, following the statement.

As it relates to your OP, you have now shifted the goalposts. Judaism BC and modern Judaism do not co-exist! Judaism BC can be true, and can simultaneously be true with Christianity. This is a thorough address of the concepts laid out in your OP. (Although many details have not been fleshed out)

If Judaism teaches that a new covenant will be held

Yes, it does. And if you want the "bare bones" I have laid out to be fleshed out, then you can pursue your own understanding of what said new Covenant is, and how it both exists and is accessible to whosoever will, within Christianity.

In this fashion you will find that Judaism and Christianity do not contradict in any way whatsoever.

 

[JRSut1000]

I think we can debate this all we want, but the Holy Spirit is the One who opens blind eyes, we cannot. Just saying...

I truly think this individual is 'out to prove something', so no matter what is said as long as this is the stance he takes, then why bother?

 

[Nanopants]

It should: the very same applies to Christianity which has been built by theologians.

That is assuming that it is false. If it is true then it would have been founded by God.

So because Judaism teaches that a new version of it will arise, it means that Judaism is false, so Christianity has no basis. Or I misunderstood your point.

How would it disprove the statement?

You stated: "If Christianity is true, then Judaism is false"

But Christianity teaches that Judaism is true. Therefore if Christianity is true, Judaism is true, and your assertion cannot possibly be true.

 

[RDawkins]

Yes. Why? Because not all is fulfilled. Which Christianity agrees with

What? Christianity agrees that Christ is a false messiah? No, I should have misunderstood sorry.

As it relates to your OP, you have now shifted the goalposts. Judaism BC and modern Judaism do not co-exist! Judaism BC can be true, and can simultaneously be true with Christianity. This is a thorough address of the concepts laid out in your OP. (Although many details have not been fleshed out)

I do not know "Judaism after BC" what is the name of that religion?

Yes, it does. And if you want the "bare bones" I have laid out to be fleshed out, then you can pursue your own understanding of what said new Covenant is, and how it both exists and is accessible to whosoever will, within Christianity.

In this fashion you will find that Judaism and Christianity do not contradict in any way whatsoever.

That is awesome. Jewish tehologians think that Christianity is false, but you think that it is 100% compatible?

Err... There is a problem in your equation.

 

[Matariki]

Judaism is a representation of the the old covenant and the history of Christianity, Christianity is the representation of the new covenant according to scripture. Both are true, the difference is that Christians choose to accept Christ, while the Jews decided to hold on to the rules of the old covenant rather than move forward with the grace of the new covenant.

John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

The statement you gave is an ignorant one, written by someone who clearly hasn't studied theology.

 

[razeontherock]

There's a "problem in my equation?" Let's look at what simple things you have gotten wrong:

Christianity agrees that Christ is a false messiah?

I do not know "Judaism after BC" what is the name of that religion?

Might I humbly suggest that you look for logical problems, elsewhere other than "my equation?"

 

[RDawkins]

That is assuming that it is false. If it is true then it would have been founded by God.

These are your own conclusions. The fact that Christianity has been built by theologians is obvious and can be deducted from the study of early Christian doctrines before the First councile of Nicee, in 325.

I also read the old Copt texts which relate the debates that were in the councile, and it is obvious, from the statements of the counciles, that some stuff like Trinity have been built by some christian thologians at the detriment of other proposals.

You stated: "If Christianity is true, then Judaism is false"

Christianity teaches that Judaism is true. Therefore if Christianity is true, Judaism is true, and your assertion cannot possibly be true.

Ok, that is interesting, because no such thing exist as Trinity in judaism so obviously, as Trinity describe the three states of God...

One must be true while the other must be false, but not both true.

 

[RDawkins]

Judaism is a representation of the the old covenant and the history of Christianity, Christianity is the representation of the new covenant according to scripture. Both are true, the difference is that Christians choose to accept Christ, while the Jews decided to hold on to the rules of the old covenant rather than move forward with the grace of the new covenant.

John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

The statement you gave is an ignorant one, written by someone who clearly hasn't studied theology.

I told you I am an agnostic atheist, not a theologian, and I came here to have your opinions.

This statement of yours is interesting, it basically states that Jewish are working with obsolete rituals.

I now much better understand why you all say it is compatible.

So, grossly, jews missed the train and failed to follow the new texts.

So, Judaism is not that "compatible" with Christianity, how could Christianity agree on something obsolete?

Two covenants saying different stuff cannot be both true!

That breaks mind...

I found a synthesis of everything that makes Judaism not compatible with Christianity here:

religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/christianity_judaism.htm

 

[razeontherock]

One must be true while the other must be false, but not both true.

Bringing up forum rules re: discussion of Trinity is petty IMHO, and I would prefer to see open discussion allowed. What you're failing to see is that Truth is veiled within Judaism, and this is plainly disclosed within their own Scriptures. So you do not have an apples to apples comparison to make on this subject.

IOW, there is no "one must be true while the other must be false" condition. This is very basic misunderstanding of the subject matter.

 

[Nanopants]

These are your own conclusions. The fact that Christianity has been built by theologians is obvious and can be deducted from the study of early Christian doctrines before the First councile of Nicee, in 325.

I also read the old Copt texts which relate the debates that were in the councile, and it is obvious, from the statements of the counciles, that some stuff like Trinity have been built by some christian thologians at the detriment of other proposals.

That's fine, but it is blatantly apparent that there are numerous teachings in both Judaism and Christianity that claim to be from God. If these teachings are true, then they are from God, and not the products of theological ponderings alone.

Ok, that is interesting, because no such thing exist as Trinity in judaism so obviously, as Trinity describe the three states of God...

One must be true while the other must be false, but not both true.

Judaism teaches of the Spirit of God, the omni-present God, and manifestations of God in human form, just as Christianity does. Nowhere in the texts is the term "trinity" explicitly mentioned. It was a creed that was added later to combat heresy.

 

[RDawkins]

You seem to admit that part of Christianity is man made, and not the word of God...

How do you (christians) do the discrimination between what is word of God and what is word of man?

 

[Nanopants]

You seem to admit that part of Christianity is man made, and not the word of God...

How do you (christians) do the discrimination between what is word of God and what is word of man?

It's easier to discern if you see the truth for yourself.