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Christianity at the most basic level

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throughfiierytrial

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So do you believe it is reasonable for us to be sent to hell for all eternity for grievances against a law that is poorly defined?

“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Luke 12:47-48

I have previously outlined that we are to live in love and worship according to the Spirit...those ways I also posted though there are more. One should eagerly seek to live a righteous life, a life that is God pleasing. The Spirit prompts us as to what is right and wrong and to move and act in a righteous way. Our sinful flesh tells us otherwise and so we are in a constant battle with our own flesh and prone to sin. We have a Savior to beseech for mercy and forgiveness and He is faithful and just and forgives us all our sins.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Oh and by the way, if there was no ressurection there would be no forgiveness of sins so I guess that you should take that out of your little theory.

Can you explain your logic there?

As far as I understand it, if Jesus never rose from the dead, then neither would Christians. But you would still be forgiven of your sins since he paid the price.
 
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Then, as I asked ToBeLoved,

Are you saying there is a reasonable, accessible method by which we can determine if a given action is sinful?


I think hell is quite directly related to sin, and sin is the topic here.


You have done nothing to define exactly what sin is, and then you go on to say it is not poorly defined.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Then, as I asked ToBeLoved,

Are you saying there is a reasonable, accessible method by which we can determine if a given action is sinful?
Well first you can start with the 10 Commandments.

Then realize that we can sin against ourselves, others and God.

Then add in that God cares as much about the motivation or the why you do something as the things you do in action.

Spirituality begins in the heart with desire. Then in the mind with control. And then in action.

Realize that the spiritual (things of God, like love, mercy, patience) last forever, the things of this world are temporary as long as we live.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I think hell is quite directly related to sin, and sin is the topic here.
I do not think so at all.

You are not being successful in even understanding sin and after 5 pages of not understanding, I think we can see that you are having issues.

So let's not put another topic on your plate.
 
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I do not think so at all.

You are not being successful in even understanding sin and after 5 pages of not understanding, I think we can see that you are having issues.

So let's not put another topic on your plate.

Sin is not at all related to hell?
 
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Why cherry pick the 10 commandments and leave out the other 600+ laws?

Also, the 10 commandments leave out "Thou shalt not rape" and "Thou shalt not enslave" so I don't think you can say they are close to exhaustive.

You then say I can sin against others and God, but you haven't yet defined sin (unless you mean to say that the 10 commandments are all we need?). After that you go into "spiritually" which can mean a million different things.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Ok. So start with the 10 Commandments and the other 600 + laws.

Then start reading the Bible.

When your done with all that, let me know.
 
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Ok. So start with the 10 Commandments and the other 600 + laws.

Then start reading the Bible.

When your done with all that, let me know.

You seem to have missed this part of my OP:


And I've read the entire Protestant Bible. All 66 books.
 
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ToBeLoved

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You seem to have missed this part of my OP:



And I've read the entire Protestant Bible. All 66 books.
I got this from this website http://www.gotquestions.org/questions_sin.html

There are about 45 FAQ's on there so you can peruse at your liesure.

This is the first and most basic one of the 45 questions and the answer.

Question: "What is the definition of sin?"

Answer:
Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Sin had its beginning with Lucifer, probably the most beautiful and powerful of the angels. Not content with his position, he desired to be higher than God, and that was his downfall, the beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Renamed Satan, he brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, “you shall be like God.” Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and against His command. Since that time, sin has been passed down through all the generations of mankind and we, Adam’s descendants, have inherited sin from him. Romans 5:12 tells us that through Adam sin entered the world, and so death was passed on to all men because “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).

Through Adam, the inherent inclination to sin entered the human race, and human beings became sinners by nature. When Adam sinned, his inner nature was transformed by his sin of rebellion, bringing to him spiritual death and depravity which would be passed on to all who came after him. We are sinners not because we sin; rather, we sin because we are sinners. This passed-on depravity is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful natures from Adam. King David lamented this condition of fallen human nature in Psalm 51:5: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”

Another type of sin is known as imputed sin. Used in both financial and legal settings, the Greek word translated “imputed” means “to take something that belongs to someone and credit it to another’s account.” Before the Law of Moses was given, sin was not imputed to man, although men were still sinners because of inherited sin. After the Law was given, sins committed in violation of the Law were imputed (accounted) to them (Romans 5:13). Even before transgressions of the law were imputed to men, the ultimate penalty for sin (death) continued to reign (Romans 5:14). All humans, from Adam to Moses, were subject to death, not because of their sinful acts against the Mosaic Law (which they did not have), but because of their own inherited sinful nature. After Moses, humans were subject to death both because of inherited sin from Adam and imputed sin from violating the laws of God.

God used the principle of imputation to benefit mankind when He imputed the sin of believers to the account of Jesus Christ, who paid the penalty for that sin—death—on the cross. Imputing our sin to Jesus, God treated Him as if He were a sinner, though He was not, and had Him die for the sins of the entire world (1 John 2:2). It is important to understand that sin was imputed to Him, but He did not inherit it from Adam. He bore the penalty for sin, but He never became a sinner. His pure and perfect nature was untouched by sin. He was treated as though He were guilty of all the sins ever committed by the human race, even though He committed none. In exchange, God imputed the righteousness of Christ to believers and credited our accounts with His righteousness, just as He had credited our sins to Christ’s account (2 Corinthians 5:21).

A third type of sin is personal sin, that which is committed every day by every human being. Because we have inherited a sin nature from Adam, we commit individual, personal sins, everything from seemingly innocent untruths to murder. Those who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ must pay the penalty for these personal sins, as well as inherited and imputed sin. However, believers have been freed from the eternal penalty of sin—hell and spiritual death—but now we also have the power to resist sinning. Now we can choose whether or not to commit personal sins because we have the power to resist sin through the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, sanctifying and convicting us of our sins when we do commit them (Romans 8:9-11). Once we confess our personal sins to God and ask forgiveness for them, we are restored to perfect fellowship and communion with Him. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

We are all three times condemned due to inherited sin, imputed sin, and personal sin. The only just penalty for this sin is death (Romans 6:23), not just physical death but eternal death (Revelation 20:11-15). Thankfully, inherited sin, imputed sin, and personal sin have all been crucified on the cross of Jesus, and now by faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior “we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7).


Since you are familiar with the Bible you can also check out the cross-references.
 
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So you are doubling down on your statement that sin is transgression against the law. I actually agree with this and was creating this thread to see if that view could be challenged. It has become clear that it cannot.

The problem is that the law is quite in need of some repair before a modern, civilized society will adhere to it, which is a topic for another day. Thank you, ToBeLoved, for your contribution and honest assessment of your faith. Unless someone else has a similarly concise definition, I will consider my question to be answered.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Then, as I asked ToBeLoved,

Are you saying there is a reasonable, accessible method by which we can determine if a given action is sinful?

Perhaps you'd like to explain what sort of answer you want to get, otherwise we're going to keep talking past one another.

I think hell is quite directly related to sin, and sin is the topic here.

I agree that hell and sin are related, though not in the way that you seem to think. The topic of hell is far more complex in no small amount because there is no definitive Christian view on hell. You presented in your prior post one way some Christians have spoken about hell--as a place of eternal torment as punishment for sins--that isn't, however, the Christian view.

To even begin talking about the relationship between sin and hell we'd first have to have the conversation on what "hell" even is. And I am almost certain that what you have in mind when you say "hell" isn't even remotely what I would mean by "hell".

Here's just a few examples:

"I also maintain that those who are punished in Gehenna are scourged by the scourge of love. For what is so bitter and vehement as the punishment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is sharper than any torment that can be. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Gehenna are deprived of the love of God. Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all. The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have played the fool, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the torment of Gehenna: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability." - St. Isaac the Syrian

Hell is a state of mind - ye never said a truer word. And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind - is, in the end, Hell. But Heaven is not a state of mind. Heaven is reality itself. All that is fully real is Heavenly. For all that can be shaken will be shaken and only the unshakeable remains.” - C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

"The whole difficulty of understanding hell is that the thing to be understood is so nearly nothing. But you’ll have had experiences. It begins with a grumbling mood, and yourself, still distinct from it, perhaps criticizing it, and yourself in a dark hour might will that mood, embrace it. You can repent and come out of it again, but there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then, there will be no you left to criticize the mood, nor even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself going on forever like a machine." - ibid.

You have done nothing to define exactly what sin is, and then you go on to say it is not poorly defined.

We seem to having a language problem.

You said the Law was poorly defined. That was what I responded to as saying that I disagree, the Law is not poorly defined, it is rather clearly defined.

You seem to be wanting to nail down sin as descriptive of particular actions or activities; the problem is that this isn't how most Christians necessarily understand sin. We can speak of individual, specific sins, such as adultery or murder. But there is no exhaustive list of individual sins, because what is sin isn't about violating an express "thou shalt not" statement; it is instead the failure to be loving and just.

Let's consider: In the Decalogue one of the mitzvot God gave to Israel was "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"; while the precise context is bearing false witness in a court of law it has come to be understood more generally as both not putting one's neighbor into ill repute and as "Don't lie". And people of faith would agree that lying would constitute a sin, a failure to do what is right. And yet if we present a scenario, the most common for this is Nazi Germany and you are hiding a Jewish family in your home. The gestapo come to your house and ask if there are any Jews hiding near by, or if you are hiding any Jews, which is the right thing to do: lie and save the family, or tell the truth and sentence the family to certain death? Well in this case lying is the right thing to do and telling the truth would be the sin.

Sin, by literal definition, is to error, to fail, to falter, to miss the mark. In Hebrew the term means "to miss the mark" as in archery, not hitting the bulls eye. In Greek harmatia means "error", as in to make a mistake, to err, to fail, etc.

The Law is about what sort of people God wants us--that is human beings--to be. And that is to be a generous, compassionate, loving, and just people. That's why Jesus sums up the entirety of God's Law in just two commandments (together they are known as the Great Commandment), namely "Love the Lord your God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself."

That's not a poorly defined Law, that's a well defined Law, that's what the Law is and is about. It's not about arduous rule keeping, it's about acting justly and kindly toward everyone. Full stop. What that actually looks like in any given situation is going to depend on the context of the situation.

Sin ends up being not just breaking certain rules, sin is about our universal failure to be loving and just people. That means we sin when we don't mean to, that means we sin even when we're trying to do good. Sin isn't about being malicious and nasty (though that's included) it's about screwing up, messing up, failing to be that which we ought to be.

Hell is not the "place" where God sends rule-breakers who have broken rules that they weren't fully aware of so they can be prodded by pitchforks and scorched in a pit of magma for eternity. Though one could be forgiven for thinking that with the way some Christians discuss the issue of hell.

And it seems to me that's largely what you are trying to get at: You want to discuss the injustice of a religious system that would say that an ill-defined moral law results in the vast majority of the human race being sentenced to a place of eternal torment for violating laws they probably wouldn't have known anything about because the one making the decision is a petty and capricious deity who doesn't bother to make the rules clear enough and thus has rigged the game to be unfair to just about everybody from the start.

Am I close?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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graceandpeace

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^this.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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It has been stated here that Christians do not believe hell to be a place of torment...certainly many of us disagree with that statement. Some quotes of Christians past have been provided as proof. I will provide here a very long list of Bible quotes referring to hell as a place of everlasting torment:


But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. Matthew 5:22

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire Matthew 7:19

If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. Matt 18:8

And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell Matt 18:9

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matt 25:41

If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. Mark 9:43

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched Mark 9:47-48

His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Luke 3:17

20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. Luke 16:20-25

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God Hebrews 10:26-27

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. II Peter 3:7

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14-15

He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Rev 21:6-8

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10

Think you get the point.
 
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civilwarbuff

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And aren't Christ's words quite worthless to us if we have no forgiveness of sins?
If He is not the Son of God then nothing He says matters....but He is the Son on God (even in your disbelief) so all He says is true...even the forgiveness of sins....
 
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