Christianity at the most basic level

brinny said:

There's a "reason" that Jesus called it a "new" commandment.

He sums it all up here:

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." ~Matthew 22:36-40

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Asking a rabbi what they thought was the greatest command was a common way to quickly understand their yoke and what they thought was essence of the law. This was in no way intended to say that only the greatest command should be followed while the rest can be ignored, but rather the rest of the commands paint a picture of what it looks like to obey the greatest two commands. the rest of the laws, such as the command to keep the Sabbath holy or to refrain from worshipping idols explain how we are supposed to love God with all of our heart, soul, and mind, and laws such as not to covet or bear false witness are explain of how we are suppose to love our neighbor. There is an example in Jewish literature of another Jewish rabbi being asked a similar question and giving a similar response as Jesus:

One of famous account in the Talmud (Shabbat 31a) tells about a gentile who wanted to convert to Judaism. This happened not infrequently, and this individual stated that he would accept Judaism only if a rabbi would teach him the entire Torah while he, the prospective convert, stood on one foot. First he went to Shammai, who, insulted by this ridiculous request, threw him out of the house. The man did not give up and went to Hillel. This gentle sage accepted the challenge, and said:

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this--go and study it!"

(For reference, Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel, who was Paul's teacher (Acts 5:34, Acts 22:3)).

Nihilist Virus said:

"While the majority if Christians think that the law has been done away with, it is certainly not 100% of us."

Deuteronomy 22:28-29...?

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Did you have a question?

Nihilist Virus said:

So if Christ died for your sins and stayed dead, yet you were forgiven of everything, there would be no Christianity?

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If Christ stayed dead, He could not have died for my sins, He would have died for His own sins like everyone else.

Correct, there would be no Christianity, there would just be Judaism.

rockytopva said:

I believe that there were three groups of angels...

1. Michael - Strong angels
2. Gabriel - Wise angels
3. Lucifer - Worshiping angels. Lucifer means light bearer and his responsibility must have been to illuminate the thrown of God the Father, which I believe he also did with worship.

Lucifer was most undoubtedly a beautiful angel to behold and in his beauty an ego came to life and he then attempted to scheme himself above the thrown of God the Father himself.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... - Isaiah 14:12-13

Rather than create another group of angels God's response was to create a new heaven and a new earth where he would raise up a people to replace Lucifer's vacated position.

And his (Lucifer's) tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven (his third of the angels), and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. - Revelation 12:4

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So you're saying that when Lucifer, as the choir director, left Heaven he took the choir with him?

RDKirk said:

So you're saying that when Lucifer, as the choir director, left Heaven he took the choir with him?

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More or less... Yes. I believe it was a terrible incident that left heaven with a loss. I believe that the creation of universe along with the big bang is in response to this event. I believe that 15 billion years passed by, in which the angels wondered what the Lord was going to do to replace the vacated places left by the fallen angels... And along came man!

Soyeong said:

Asking a rabbi what they thought was the greatest command was a common way to quickly understand their yoke and what they thought was essence of the law. This was in no way intended to say that only the greatest command should be followed while the rest can be ignored, but rather the rest of the commands paint a picture of what it looks like to obey the greatest two commands. the rest of the laws, such as the command to keep the Sabbath holy or to refrain from worshipping idols explain how we are supposed to love God with all of our heart, soul, and mind, and laws such as not to covet or bear false witness are explain of how we are suppose to love our neighbor. There is an example in Jewish literature of another Jewish rabbi being asked a similar question and giving a similar response as Jesus:

One of famous account in the Talmud (Shabbat 31a) tells about a gentile who wanted to convert to Judaism. This happened not infrequently, and this individual stated that he would accept Judaism only if a rabbi would teach him the entire Torah while he, the prospective convert, stood on one foot. First he went to Shammai, who, insulted by this ridiculous request, threw him out of the house. The man did not give up and went to Hillel. This gentle sage accepted the challenge, and said:

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this--go and study it!"

(For reference, Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel, who was Paul's teacher (Acts 5:34, Acts 22:3)).

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Not following you.....

read the rest of the verses (before the verse i posted) for context.

Thank you kindly.

Soyeong said:

I used to believe that we are to follow the laws that are repeated in the NT. However, now I think that implies that some laws were considered unimportant or that Jesus thought that he was editing the law, which flies in the face of Matthew 5:17-19, where he said that not the least part would disappear from the law and warned those who would relax the least part of the law or taught others to do the same.

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The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. It is a new and better covenant as it is not temporary atonement, but permanent atonement through the blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus came to fulfill the law and through leading a life of no sin He has done that.

Jesus tells us that all of the law is contained in these two commandments; love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.

The Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus nor the New Covenant are obviously not part of the New Covenant for faith is the basis of it. They still probably fall under the law of the Old Covenant because they do not have faith or believe.

rockytopva said:

I believe that there were three groups of angels...

1. Michael - Strong angels
2. Gabriel - Wise angels
3. Lucifer - Worshiping angels. Lucifer means light bearer and his responsibility must have been to illuminate the thrown of God the Father, which I believe he also did with worship.

Lucifer was most undoubtedly a beautiful angel to behold and in his beauty an ego came to life and he then attempted to scheme himself above the thrown of God the Father himself.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... - Isaiah 14:12-13

Rather than create another group of angels God's response was to create a new heaven and a new earth where he would raise up a people to replace Lucifer's vacated position.

And his (Lucifer's) tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven (his third of the angels), and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. - Revelation 12:4

In the garden God created a tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. In that this tree was in the garden signifies God's desire that this earth be about choices and decisions. In that Adam and Eve ate of the tree, which they were told to avoid, signified the human desire to get out on his own and test the forces of good and evil for himself.

God sent his son Jesus to give us a choice to return to him, or to continue in the world of sin. Lucifer knows that we were created to fill his vacated position and he wars with us trying to keep us away from this award....

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. - Revelation 12

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This is way off topic and is it appropriate for a struggling Christian asking about the basic tenants of Christian faith? I would think that this would be a new thread or you will really confuse him.

ToBeLoved said:

This is way off topic and is it appropriate for a struggling Christian asking about the basic tenants of Christian faith? I would think that this would be a new thread or you will really confuse him.

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He was asking about the origins of sin... Which all began with Lucifer himself. And I was trying to show him that because of Lucifer's fall a third of the heavens were void, leaving room for what would become the human race to replace. In which Christ Jesus made the way by dying on the cross that we may have our sins forgiven.

ToBeLoved said:

The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. It is a new and better covenant as it is not temporary atonement, but permanent atonement through the blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus came to fulfill the law and through leading a life of no sin He has done that.

Jesus tells us that all of the law is contained in these two commandments; love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.

The Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus nor the New Covenant are obviously not part of the New Covenant for faith is the basis of it. They still probably fall under the law of the Old Covenant because they do not have faith or believe.

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Indeed, the New Covenant is better and replaced the Old. Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching how to obey it and by demonstrating a perfect example for us to follow, and we are told to follow his example and walk as he walked. If you look at the first four of the 10 Commandments, they are about how to love God, the last six are about how to love your neighbor, and all of the rest of the commands can fit into either of those two categories. If you think you just need to love God and love your neighbor and can ignore all of the rest of God's commands for how to love Him and your neighbor, then you are missing the point.

brinny said:

Not following you.....

read the rest of the verses (before the verse i posted) for context.

Thank you kindly.

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It didn't appear to me that you correctly understood what Jesus was saying when he said "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Jesus didn't teach anything new, but only did the will of the Father in accordance with what had already been established by the prophets (Amos 3:7).

Soyeong said:

It didn't appear to me that you correctly understood what Jesus was saying when he said "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Jesus didn't teach anything new, but only did the will of the Father in accordance with what had already been established by the prophets (Amos 3:7).

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read the Bible verse again in its entirety and please elaborate on what you believe it means.

Just for clarity's sake, what specifically is Jesus saying the law and all the prophets hang on?

brinny said:

read the Bible verse again in its entirety and please elaborate on what you believe it means.

Just for clarity's sake, what specifically is Jesus saying the law and all the prophets hang on?

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Jesus said that the law and the prophet hand on the greatest two commandments and that is because the law and the prophets explain how to obey them. The command to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, strength, and mind is a lot easier said than done. What does the life or someone who is obedience to this command look like? Graciously, we have a bunch of other laws that paint us a picture of what that looks like and we have a perfect example to follow of Jesus' obedience to them.

Soyeong said:

Jesus said that the law and the prophet hand on the greatest two commandments and that is because the law and the prophets explain how to obey them. The command to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, strength, and mind is a lot easier said than done. What does the life or someone who is obedience to this command look like? Happily, we have a bunch of other laws that paint us a picture of what that looks like and we have a perfect example to follow of Jesus' obedience to them.

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Read it again. Then keep in mind that God Himself grants (sheds abroad in our hearts a love for Him)

Then read this:

1 Corinthians 13

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,a but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

brinny said:

Read it again. Then keep in mind that God Himself grants (sheds abroad in our hearts a love for Him)

Then read this:

1 Corinthians 13

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,a but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

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John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Obedience to God's commands is how He wants us to demonstrate our love to Him.

Soyeong said:

Asking a rabbi what they thought was the greatest command was a common way to quickly understand their yoke and what they thought was essence of the law. This was in no way intended to say that only the greatest command should be followed while the rest can be ignored, but rather the rest of the commands paint a picture of what it looks like to obey the greatest two commands. the rest of the laws, such as the command to keep the Sabbath holy or to refrain from worshipping idols explain how we are supposed to love God with all of our heart, soul, and mind, and laws such as not to covet or bear false witness are explain of how we are suppose to love our neighbor. There is an example in Jewish literature of another Jewish rabbi being asked a similar question and giving a similar response as Jesus:

One of famous account in the Talmud (Shabbat 31a) tells about a gentile who wanted to convert to Judaism. This happened not infrequently, and this individual stated that he would accept Judaism only if a rabbi would teach him the entire Torah while he, the prospective convert, stood on one foot. First he went to Shammai, who, insulted by this ridiculous request, threw him out of the house. The man did not give up and went to Hillel. This gentle sage accepted the challenge, and said:

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this--go and study it!"

(For reference, Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel, who was Paul's teacher (Acts 5:34, Acts 22:3)).

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Christians do not follow the Talmud or believe in any of your other Jewish literature.

This forum is "Struggles by Christians".

We know by God that the Bible is the only authority.

Proverbs 30:5-6
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

2 Timothy 3:16-17
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Soyeong said:

Jesus said that the law and the prophet hand on the greatest two commandments and that is because the law and the prophets explain how to obey them. The command to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, strength, and mind is a lot easier said than done. What does the life or someone who is obedience to this command look like? Graciously, we have a bunch of other laws that paint us a picture of what that looks like and we have a perfect example to follow of Jesus' obedience to them.

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That is not what Jesus said.

Jesus said that the law has been fulfilled if you follow two commandments.

So under the New Covenant all those other laws do not matter.

ToBeLoved said:

Christians do not follow the Talmud or believe in any of your other Jewish literature.

This forum is "Struggles by Christians".

We know by God that the Bible is the only authority.

Proverbs 30:5-6
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

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The Bible was written in a Jewish cultural context, so while I completely agree we should not read Jewish literature as having the same authority as the Bible, it can still be valuable in helping us to correctly interpret it. In this case, this account very closely parallels the account with Jesus, where someone is interested in quickly understanding the essence of the Torah. The person was not asking about which command was important to keep, but about which command was the most important. The rabbi didn't say that he should keep this one command and not have to worry about keeping the others, but that the others explain how to keep that command and that he should go and study them. In the same way, the other commands explain how to love God and love our neighbor, so we should also go and study them.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

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“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

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At the time Timothy was a child, the only Scripture available to him was the OT, and in specific it is the God's law that is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, training in righteousness, and equipping us to do every good work (Ephesians 2:10). Yet, you saying that Scripture isn't profitable for that and that it doesn't not matter.

That is not what Jesus said.

Jesus said that the law has been fulfilled if you follow two commandments.

So under the New Covenant all those other laws do not matter.

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Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it (Matthew 5:17-19), yet you instead interpret it as though he said he came to abolish the law. Jesus also warned that those who would relax the least of the commandments or teach others to do the same would be called least in the kingdom, and you should take his warning more seriously.

To fulfill the law meant to interpret the law in a way that adds meaning to it, fills it up with meaning, brings full understanding to it, or demonstrates a correct understanding. Jesus fulfilled the law six times throughout the rest of Matthew 5 by teaching how to obey it and by demonstrating through a perfectly sinless life how it should correctly be obeyed. Every Sabbath a rabbi in a synagogue would take a Torah scroll to Moses' seat and fulfill the law by interpreting and explaining how it should be understood. Obeying those two commands fulfills the law because they encompass the rest of the laws and shows a full understanding of what they are essentially about. Every single one of God's laws can be described as either how God wants us to love Him or how God wants us to love our neighbor.

God is holy, righteous, and good, so and His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) because it is based of His character. So it would be to our advantage to have such a conduct even if God had made no covenants with us and had not given His instructions for it to anyone in particular. Throughout the Bible, God has wanted His people to return to Him and obey His laws, and the problem with the Old Covenant wasn't with God's laws, but that His people didn't obey them. The New Covenant wasn't given because it didn't matter to God whether His people obeyed him and had a holy, righteous, and good conduct, but because it does matter to God. That is what God has wanted since the Fall, to restore us to righteousness. God did not send Jesus to set us free from transgressing His law so that we could be free to transgress it, but so that we would be free to not transgress it.

Soyeong said:

Indeed, the New Covenant is better and replaced the Old. Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching how to obey it and by demonstrating a perfect example for us to follow, and we are told to follow his example and walk as he walked. If you look at the first four of the 10 Commandments, they are about how to love God, the last six are about how to love your neighbor, and all of the rest of the commands can fit into either of those two categories. If you think you just need to love God and love your neighbor and can ignore all of the rest of God's commands for how to love Him and your neighbor, then you are missing the point.

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Jesus Himself said those two commandments fulfilled all of the law.

Do not get mad at me, talk to Jesus about it.

Soyeong said:

Jesus said that the law and the prophet hand on the greatest two commandments and that is because the law and the prophets explain how to obey them. The command to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, strength, and mind is a lot easier said than done. What does the life or someone who is obedience to this command look like? Graciously, we have a bunch of other laws that paint us a picture of what that looks like and we have a perfect example to follow of Jesus' obedience to them.

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Jesus of course has written His Word on our hearts.

That is probably why we do not need all the extra laws that the Jewish people follow. They can come to Christ themselves and the Lord will do that for them also.