Christianity as a philosophical system?

[Eudaimonist]

If I suggested that Christianity is a perfect philosophical system, how would you argue against it?

Simple. Christianity is not a philosophical system. While theologians such as Aquinas have presented their apologetics as a philosophical system, what we find in the New Testament isn't philosophy at all.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[3sigma]

The system is complete regardless if the answers included in it are right or wrong. Right or wrong is a different consideration.

I see. So you are using ‘perfect’ only to mean ‘lacking in no essential detail’ and disregarding the meaning ‘entirely without fault or defect’? However, it is trivial for a religion to be complete because you can always resort to “God did it” as an answer to any question you ever have. That may answer your questions to your satisfaction, but I find that answer to be shallow and worthless.

 

[SithDoughnut]

There are certainly unanswered questions in Christianity to those who do not accept the provided answers, such as how old is the earth etc. But the system provides a version of answer to every possible question.

What is Christianity's answer to this question: Why did God create the universe? "God is mysterious" and similar replies are not answers, but an admission of not having one.

In that sense, what do I need to prove?

That it does answer every possible question. You can start with the one I asked.

EDIT: That being said, I think I'm probably in agreement with Eudaimonist. Most of what Christianity is doesn't actually fit into a philosophical system, now I think about it.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Job 11:7: "Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty?"

Isaiah 40:28: "Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the LORD, the
Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable."

1 Corinthians 2:11: "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit
within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

How can a finite human being expect to fully understand our infinite God? If you truly want to know
more about God, you can read the Bible, which is His Word. He has revealed Himself, what He is like,
in the pages of the Bible. You can also learn more about Him through the life of His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[SithDoughnut]

1 Corinthians 2:11: "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit
within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

Then Christianity cannot answer the question, and is imperfect.

 

[quatona]

What is your question that Christianity does not provide an answer?

There are plenty of them.
But why do you ask? How would the conversation continue?

You state that Christianity is perfect because it answers all your questions.
I am applying the same criterion and respond that it´s not perfect because it doesn´t answer mine.

Do you want to have an in depth, detailed theological discussion about your beliefs with me?

 

[quatona]

This purpose of this thread is not to convince you on anything, but is begging you to challenge, or to convince me. I do think Christianity is a perfect philosophical system.

Why do you want me to convince you that Christianity is not a perfect philosophical system?

 

[juvenissun]

Simple. Christianity is not a philosophical system. While theologians such as Aquinas have presented their apologetics as a philosophical system, what we find in the New Testament isn't philosophy at all.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Is a theological system also a philosophical system? why not?
Christianity is more than just a theology.

 

[juvenissun]

I see. So you are using ‘perfect’ only to mean ‘lacking in no essential detail’ and disregarding the meaning ‘entirely without fault or defect’? However, it is trivial for a religion to be complete because you can always resort to “God did it” as an answer to any question you ever have. That may answer your questions to your satisfaction, but I find that answer to be shallow and worthless.

It would also include "why" did God do it, and more.

It is very very difficult to make up one, particularly a complete one.

 

[juvenissun]

What is Christianity's answer to this question: Why did God create the universe? "God is mysterious" and similar replies are not answers, but an admission of not having one.
That it does answer every possible question. You can start with the one I asked.

EDIT: That being said, I think I'm probably in agreement with Eudaimonist. Most of what Christianity is doesn't actually fit into a philosophical system, now I think about it.

This is exactly the type of question not even touched by other philosophy/religion. But Christianity says something about it.

God creates or not creates. If not creates, then there will be nothing but God Himself. Notice here the word "nothing" means not even time or space. No time, no space and no material and no energy. It is much more emptier than just empty.

God compares that situation with the situation if He creates, It is not hard to understand why does He creates.

I think this explanation is very philosophical. Why is it not?

 

[juvenissun]

Job 11:7: "Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty?"

Isaiah 40:28: "Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the LORD, the
Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable."

1 Corinthians 2:11: "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit
within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

How can a finite human being expect to fully understand our infinite God? If you truly want to know
more about God, you can read the Bible, which is His Word. He has revealed Himself, what He is like,
in the pages of the Bible. You can also learn more about Him through the life of His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

I strongly against that. I want to know my future. I want to know if I am still alive after I die. The reason I want to know is because the answer will determine what I do now.

Orthodox Buddhism does not answer that.

Just because you want to know doesn't mean that it's something that is in your best interest. You might want to know many things, but will that make you more fulfilled? That's where Buddhism and Daoism differ strongly with religions based in a permanent afterlife like heaven/hell. Why should your future determine what you do now? Unless you're a strong determinist, your future is essentially unknown and there are only so many limiting factors on your life, such as your health, etc.

I wouldn't say there's one Orthodox buddhism either, but as I said, I'm not strictly a Buddhist.

 

[juvenissun]

Then Christianity cannot answer the question, and is imperfect.

What is the question, please?

 

[juvenissun]

There are plenty of them.
But why do you ask? How would the conversation continue?

You state that Christianity is perfect because it answers all your questions.
I am applying the same criterion and respond that it´s not perfect because it doesn´t answer mine.

Do you want to have an in depth, detailed theological discussion about your beliefs with me?

I want to know what is the question you have but is not answered in Christianity.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

I am not saying Christianity makes people understand everything. To give an answer is different from to make people understand. I am saying that Christianity provides logic answers to everything except the faith, which is taken as an assumption. I know Buddhism is also very wide and deep. It also has a beautiful logic system. But, as I always complained, it does not provide answers to some fundamental questions. If this is true, then only focus will not help on the overall satisfaction.

The primary source of your difficulty is that you think from the start that those questions are fundamental as opposed to simply possible questions we can ask. Some possible questions are indeed basic, such as whether we can trust our sensory input or questions about ethics or logic, but some questions, such as cosmology or eschatology, seem to me less practical and more prone to speculation over any concrete answers that have relevance to our present lives. Which is why I tend to be a Buddhist in the Zen sense more than Theravadan or Vajrayana

 

[juvenissun]

Why do you want me to convince you that Christianity is not a perfect philosophical system?

Because I think it is. And I want a challenge. Just in case I am wrong.

By the way, I like the way you communicate.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

That is enough. It does not have to be true.

Nobody in Christianity is debating on its framework structure (otherwise, it becomes a cult). All debates are about details. And as I said, this fact is a symptom of perfectness.

something being self evident is different than it being experientially evident. You might have the experience that Christianity is true by experience, but Christianity is clearly not self evident like concepts of numbers or colors, which for the most part, all humanity can understand without much complexity.

How can debates be a sign of perfection if perfection is completion? If something is complete, wouldn't debates be basically pointless? You seem to say that something is objectively perfect, even if it appears subjectively imperfect, which is just wanting to have your cake and eat it too; debate Christianity's truth while also believing it is true without you really needing to debate about its truth

 

[ToHoldNothing]

I am not arguing against Buddhism. I only want to know what does it say to some questions. Origin of life is one of them. I will only ask question, but not arguing about the answer, until I get a complete picture of it.

The most common answer I got so far is: "we do not talk about it".

As people have already pointed out, there are questions that Christianity would basically answer the same to. How can we understand the Trinity? Why did God create so many humans only to condemn most of them to hell? Why did God create "Lucifer"?

Just because Buddhism chooses not to answer what you think are fundamental questions doesn't make it incomplete or imperfect, since as I argued, perhaps your fundamental questions aren't all so fundamental.

 

[Gracchus]

Is a theological system also a philosophical system? why not?
Christianity is more than just a theology.

Christianity, like (nearly) every religion, is not just a theology, it is a tool of statecraft and a very profitable business.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

The difference between theology and philosophy seems to hinge on the source of your authority. Philosophy draws from rules of rhetoric and logic established over time, whereas theology draws from holy texts and then tries to formulate them systematically. Theology is religious philosophy, whereas philosophy can manifest in philosophy of religion.