Christianity and science .. vs.. junk-science evolutionism

[BobRyan]

================== we start with the obvious

What is so obvious about the text that even Atheists can see what the text is saying

Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’


========================= obvious detail #2 -- legal code applied to humans at Sinai


In the Bible we have this "legal code" -

Ex 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy - SIX days you shall labor... For in SIX days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Gen 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made
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Continuity -

It is very clear that Christ, the Jews of Christ's day and those of today - followed that same Ex 20:8-11 command so much so that they continue to keep the Bible 7th day Sabbath and even Christians who claim that 2000 years ago Christ was raised on week-day-1 keep Sunday as week-day-1 affirming the same 7 day cycle with Saturday as the 7th day.

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So now then -- ignoring every detail posted so far -- we have

For this, people like you and I are derided for not "believing in the Bible", et cetera, but some people take a literal, Antiochene interpretation of the Old Testament to the point that they deny even the spherical nature of the world, while at the same time insisting on an interpretation of the New Testament, which is of immediate immanent relevance as the literal encounter of man with God incarnate, which manu prophets and patriarchs of the old desired to see but did not, but which the entire Old Testament is a prophecy of, which is so figurative as to be ephemeral.

The idea proposed for us to imagine there is that James Barr and all professors of world class universities are people who " take a literal, Antiochene interpretation of the Old Testament to the point that they deny even the spherical nature of the world, while at the same time insisting on an interpretation of the New Testament, which is of immediate immanent relevance as the literal encounter of man with God incarnate"

 

[Colter]

Because you reject the Bible as being the Word of God??

I reject Biblical idolatry which stunts growth and leads to bigotry and persecution. The Bible is the written word which is mans writings about the Living Word which is God. The Bible books have many factual errors which Bible worshippers must blatantly ignore or else their misapplied faith would crash.

 

[Colter]

I have discussed theses things with BobRyan before, the incarnation of God becoming Mary's baby was the miricle of miricles. Jesus ressurected after death and returned home.

 

[BobRyan]

I reject Biblical idolatry which stunts growth and leads to bigotry and persecution.

For the sake of clarity your definition of "Biblical idolatry" is accepting the Bible as the Word of God - accepting the 2Tim 3:16 statement "all scripture is given by inspiration from God" etc -- right?

In which case I think you have a "consistent" position for defending belief in the doctrines of evolutionism as found in your book Urantia. Not sure if your fellow T.E.s have the inclination to take up your "solution" however.

The Bible is the written word which is mans writings about the Living Word which is God. The Bible books have many factual errors which Bible worshippers must blatantly ignore or else their misapplied faith would crash.

That statement might fit what a few of your fellow T.E.'s are also thinking. They just don't have Urantia to revert to instead of the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

I have discussed theses things with BobRyan before, the incarnation of God becoming Mary's baby was the miricle of miricles. Jesus ressurected after death and returned home.

And by that you mean "Joseph was Jesus' biological father" -- for the sake of clarity.

 

[Colter]

And by that you mean "Joseph was Jesus' biological father" -- for the sake of clarity.

Who did Jesus look like?

 

[Colter]

For the sake of clarity your definition of "Biblical idolatry" is accepting the Bible as the Word of God - accepting the 2Tim 3:16 statement "all scripture is given by inspiration from God" etc -- right?

In which case I think you have a "consistent" position for defending belief in the doctrines of evolutionism as found in your book Urantia. Not sure if your fellow T.E.s have the inclination to take up your "solution" however.



That statement might fit what a few of your fellow T.E.'s are also thinking. They just don't have Urantia to revert to instead of the Bible.

Evolution is founded in fact based science. YEC is a faith.

 

[J Cord]

More snake oil quakery form the world of Scientism methinks.

No, that's what science says. If you really believe science sells "snake oil quakery", then I suggest you quit using the products of science. So, get your water from a well, use an outhouse, don't use mechanical transportation, horses only. Only eat food you've grown from seed. Don't visit the doctor or hospital. No light and heat other than the sun and fire

If you live like that, then I think you believe what you are saying. If not, then you are believing what you want to believe because it makes you feel good.

 

[dqhall]

Bible regulations allowing ownership of slaves have been abolished in America and Europe. One may not sacrifice a a bull, lambs, goats, or doves to try to gain remission of sins, even though the Bible commands it.

Matthew 21:12 (WEB) Jesus entered into the temple of God, and drove out all of those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the money changers’ tables and the seats of those who sold the doves. 13 He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of robbers!"

Hosea 6:6 (WEB) For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

What new things have been done on the face of the earth since the Bible was written?

 

[Anguspure]

You can say that, you can think that, you can sincerely believe that, but that doesn't make it true. The material remains of the earths history doesn't correspond with the Hebrews pseudo-biographical story.

It may not correspond to a basic and purely "literal" understanding of an English translation.
But to suggest that this is the correct understanding of what Moses wrote is worse than junk science, it is a Strawman that won't stay on its pole.

 

[Anguspure]

No, that's what science says. If you really believe science sells "snake oil quakery", then I suggest you quit using the products of science. So, get your water from a well, use an outhouse, don't use mechanical transportation, horses only. Only eat food you've grown from seed. Don't visit the doctor or hospital. No light and heat other than the sun and fire

If you live like that, then I think you believe what you are saying. If not, then you are believing what you want to believe because it makes you feel good.

This is exactly what I mean by "snake oil quakery.
"Define "science" and define "evolution".

Without proper definition of such broad terms the statement as it was made is an ideaological statement of faith in Scientism.

The fact is that Darwinism has almost nothing of use to contribute to technological innovation in the world and in fact it is the recognition of astonishing design and functional coherence at a molecular biological level that is leading to some of the most startling advances in the world today.

To try and sell "science" and "evolution" it as some dogmatic over arching "truth" is very much quakery. Just substitute "the great fairy godmother said that we all magicked into existence a long, long time ago" next time it will be more plausable.

 

[J Cord]

This is exactly what I mean by "snake oil quakery.
"Define "science" and define "evolution".

Without proper definition of such broad terms the statement as it was made is an ideaological statement of faith in Scientism.

The fact is that Darwinism has almost nothing of use to contribute to technological innovation in the world and in fact it is the recognition of astonishing design and functional coherence at a molecular biological level that is leading to some of the most startling advances in the world today.

To try and sell "science" and "evolution" it as some dogmatic over arching "truth" is very much quakery. Just substitute "the great fairy godmother said that we all magicked into existence a long, long time ago" next time it will be more plausable.

Sorry, I don't have the time or interest to give you an education in science. There is plenty of information on the internet, or take a course at your local community college.

 

[Colter]

It may not correspond to a basic and purely "literal" understanding of an English translation.
But to suggest that this is the correct understanding of what Moses wrote is worse than junk science, it is a Strawman that won't stay on its pole.

Mental gymnastics doesn't make what the Hebrews wrote, editing and incorporating what Moses originally wrote, correct. The creation story of Genesis is untenable. Its basically a hijacking of pieces of ancient, Mesopotamian history on the part of the Jews and making it their own, vainly attempting to trace their blood lines back to Adam whom they assumed was the first man on earth. But then comes a scientific age of investigation and just a little common sense.

 

[Alithis]

So then.. do.. or do not accept the "virgin birth" -- the bodily resurrection of Christ, the bodily ascension of Christ?

Or do we need "another Bible" to explain the Bible no matter how easy to read - the Bible is?

I do in full
i accept that Gods word is true
i accept every thing he says in his word as absolute truth .including everything to do with the holy Spirit today and that we are under a new covenant not the old one of law i don't pick and choose to match my theology or make up a new theology via unbelief .
science has agenda it wants to be right so it forces its ever changing present opinion on us only to get disproved time and time again later on .

 

[BobRyan]

Yes - the Bible is true. And yes there are some efforts to hijack science in the name of blind-faith evolutionism - but we need not pretend we don't "notice" when that happens.

 

[BobRyan]

Mental gymnastics doesn't make what the Hebrews wrote, editing and incorporating what Moses originally wrote, correct. .

But you don't actually have manuscript evidence that they ever did such editing and incorporating - you simply "believe in the edits anyway".

And were we just simply " not supposed to notice "?? really??

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, I don't have the time or interest to give you an education in science. .

Science welcome.

But junk-science fiction about the belief that "an amoeba will sure enough turn into a rabbit over time given a talented enough amoeba and a long and talented enough period of time filled with just-so stories on mount-improbable that are easy enough to tell but they are not science" - can be left at home.

And without that level of junk-science -- no Bible-bending needed.

 

[BobRyan]

If you really believe science sells "snake oil quakery", then I suggest you quit using the products of science. So, get your water from a well, use an outhouse, don't use mechanical transportation, horses only. Only eat food you've grown from seed. Don't visit the doctor or hospital. .

Great examples of inventions that can be used without closing your eyes - clicking your heels and saying softly to yourself "I really really do believe an amoeba will sure enough turn into a rabbit over time given a talented enough amoeba and a long and talented enough period of time filled with just-so stories on mount-improbable that are easy enough to tell but they are not science" -

 

[J Cord]

Great examples of inventions that can be used without closing your eyes - clicking your heels and saying softly to yourself "I really really do believe an amoeba will sure enough turn into a rabbit over time given a talented enough amoeba and a long and talented enough period of time filled with just-so stories on mount-improbable that are easy enough to tell but they are not science" -

Electricity is an invention that can be used without closing your eyes and....

You're kidding right? Primitive man could see the electrons dancing about could he? Wouldn't have surprised him at all to have light in the middle of the night, like magic? And a TV? Why a primitive man would just grab a bag of popcorn, and sit down to watch Friends without a second thought. Well, he would have been amazed at cooking popcorn without a fire...

 

[Colter]

But you don't actually have manuscript evidence that they ever did such editing and incorporating - you simply "believe in the edits anyway".

And were we just simply " not supposed to notice "?? really??

They didn't claim to be writing the word of God just like Paul didn't claim his words were inspired when he wrote simple letters. Church government made that claim. And they didn't know we could annalise their writings to show discrepancies and errors.