Christianity and Paganism

[Ramr]

Hi. I’m a beginner at this forum. I just want to learn English in this way, but the questions of Christianity are really interesting to me. I consider myself as a Christian, because I’m really impressed and inspired by lofty ideals of Jesus. At the same time magic is my lively faith. I don’t see a contradiction in it. But I see contradictions with Christian Church’ theories. Don’t laugh at my English, I will appreciate if anybody will correct me. A small extract from Russian-language forum where I am used to posting is given below.

Taking into account deep evangelical symbolism, we cannot pass over THE FIRST event after Jesus’ birth: visit of magicians who came from the East and brought symbolic gifts. The magicians were led by a star. Think about it, it is really striking. Sorcery is severely condemned by Christian Church, but those sorcerers were chosen by God to be the first who had understood the Jesus’ mission BEFORE of his preaching. Only great divine prophets can do that, but in the Gospel they are clearly referred to as magicians. In my opinion it means that there is no contradiction between Jesus’ teaching and an essence of magic practices.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Hi. I’m a beginner at this forum. I just want to learn English in this way, but the questions of Christianity are really interesting to me. I consider myself as a Christian, because I’m really impressed and inspired by lofty ideals of Jesus. At the same time magic is my lively faith. I don’t see a contradiction in it. But I see contradictions with Christian Church’ theories. Don’t laugh at my English, I will appreciate if anybody will correct me. A small extract from Russian-language forum where I am used to posting is given below.

Taking into account deep evangelical symbolism, we cannot pass over THE FIRST event after Jesus’ birth: visit of magicians who came from the East and brought symbolic gifts. The magicians were led by a star. Think about it, it is really striking. Sorcery is severely condemned by Christian Church, but those sorcerers were chosen by God to be the first who had understood the Jesus’ mission BEFORE of his preaching. Only great divine prophets can do that, but in the Gospel they are clearly referred to as magicians. In my opinion it means that there is no contradiction between Jesus’ teaching and an essence of magic practices.

Welcome to CF Ramr!
Your post was just fine. I wouldn't have guessed that English was not your first language.

Regarding your post question... there have been a number of threads on this topic in the Non Christian Religions forum that you may want to look over. There are Wiccan members that consider themselves to be Christians. There are also members more than willing to argue this point with them.
I was looking at information earlier this week on the religious tolerance site regarding of divination/sorcery in the bible and found some scriptures and favorable perspectives on this. For example, there are a number of instances in the bible where respected leaders were involved in divining the future, appaarently without any condemnations by God. Some are:
In Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he devineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying. This technique of foretelling the future was used by Nostradamus and is still used today.
The Urim and Thummim were two objects mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1 Samuel 28:6 of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were apparently devices (perhaps in the form of flat stones) that the high priest consulted to determine the will of God. They might have worked something like a pair of dice.The prophet Daniel was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". See Daniel 5:11.Some faith groups, particularly Pentecostals, expect Christians to receive gifts from God which confirm their salvation one of these is prophecy, as described in 1 Corinthians 12:10.

OK, make of this what you will. There are arguments to made on either side of this topic and no doubt they will be made.
Regardless, hope that you enjoy your time here.
Meow ~ Kat

 

[Fledge]

Hi. I’m a beginner at this forum. I just want to learn English in this way, but the questions of Christianity are really interesting to me. I consider myself as a Christian, because I’m really impressed and inspired by lofty ideals of Jesus. At the same time magic is my lively faith. I don’t see a contradiction in it. But I see contradictions with Christian Church’ theories. Don’t laugh at my English, I will appreciate if anybody will correct me. A small extract from Russian-language forum where I am used to posting is given below.

Taking into account deep evangelical symbolism, we cannot pass over THE FIRST event after Jesus’ birth: visit of magicians who came from the East and brought symbolic gifts. The magicians were led by a star. Think about it, it is really striking. Sorcery is severely condemned by Christian Church, but those sorcerers were chosen by God to be the first who had understood the Jesus’ mission BEFORE of his preaching. Only great divine prophets can do that, but in the Gospel they are clearly referred to as magicians. In my opinion it means that there is no contradiction between Jesus’ teaching and an essence of magic practices.

Welcome to CF, Ramr. The magi were indeed led by a star, but the word translated "magi" in some English translations and "wise men" in others doesn't necessarily mean "magician(s)". That is one of the possible meanings, but there isn't any way for ust to be sure that such was the case.

Chrysalis Kat, I think I have to object to your examples. From the Biblical account, it would indeed appear that Joseph practiced divination, but this was before God commanded against it. The Urim and Thummim both seem to have been involved in determining God's will, but I'm not sure that they necessarily involve the use of magic as such. God commanded the Israelites to cast lots a number of times, and Acts records that the apostles once did the same after asking God to cast a perfect lot.

As for Daniel, he told Nebuchadnezzar (spelling?) that his knowledge wasn't the result of any talent or ability of his own, but a gift from God. It appears that he was placed over the wise men and astrologers of the kingdom because of his wisdom and ability to predict the future, but once again it would appear to be a gift of God, not magic the way it is commonly thought of. It is the same kind of thing with Pentecostals and Charismatics. Prophecy is viewed as the working of the Holy Spirit, not something "magical".

 

[holo]

I don't know enough about magic to say very much specifically about this.

But I'm sure there's a lot of powers and abilities in our minds and brains that those of us in the western part of the world are quick to call magic or sorcery and stuff.

 

[Ramr]

Thanks.

Chrysalis Kat, I'll use the information.

Holo, it's important indeed to determine the notion "magic" before we can discuss anything about it.

Fledge, I use a Russian version of the Gospel where an obsolete Russian word is used, which definitely denotes sorcery, witchcraft, magic. However, I've heard about the "wise men" variant somewhere else. Of course they could be wise men, and they were indeed, but simply wise men? It would be strange enough. Jesus himself was certainly a wise man, wasn't he? But it's certainly insufficient. And in case of those wise men it's obviously insufficient. Because they had done something unusual for those who were usually recognized as wise men. They were honoured to be led by a divine star. Are there other similar examples in the Bible? They knew about Jesus' mission before his preaching, only prophets can do that. Even John the Baptist asked Jesus if he the very man who had been predicted by ancient Judaic prophets and by John himself. They didn't ask, they knew, and notice that they were not Jews at all. They came from a land where monotheism was not practiced and where paganism was practiced instead, according to contemporary treatments of Christian Church. So, "magi" definitely means more than simply "wise men". "Magicians" is rather more appropriate term. However, it returns us to the question what is the magic and who is a magician. My definition: magic is a relation with God. Magician is a person who is in a contact with the power which governs his destiny. From this point of view Jesus was a great magician. And also from this point of view the magic is not in contradiction with Jesus' teaching. Is such a definition in contradiction with common understanding of magic? I don't think so. I think it is essence of magic, the rest is not substantial (something like techniques, ceremonials and so on). Similar division into lively faith and ceremonials we have in any traditional religion where lively faith is essential whereas rituals are not (but nevertheless important indeed).

 

[Fledge]

Since the Bible doesn't get into any specifics of who the magi were and how they knew about Jesus and who He was, it is impossible for us to say with any certainty what precisely they were. I wouldn't be surprised if they practiced astrology or other things that are condemned by Christians today, but I don't think that it would be "necessary" for them to do so. It is possible that God chose people who would be instantly recognized as "pagans" by the Jews in order to emphasize the global nature of what was about to happen. However, the Bible does not say so, so once again, it is impossible to say with any certainty.

Your comment about John the Baptist is very interesting, because in Matthew, when Jesus comes to be baptized at the Jordan, John tells Jesus "I have need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" (Mt 3:14 NASB) Yet, later on (11:2,3) John sends his disciples to ask Jesus "Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?" So it would appear that John recognized Jesus for who He was, but later on had doubts, and sent his disciples to Jesus to find out for sure.

I have to say that your definition of magic is very different from the definition that most Westerners use, which is probably why you don't understand the strong stance that most Christians take on things like magic. Still, your definition of magic and magician were a little bit vague on some things, so if you could elaborate on them I would appreciate it.

 

[Ramr]

Fledge,

"Since the Bible doesn't get into any specifics of who the magi were and how they knew about Jesus and who He was, it is impossible for us to say with any certainty what precisely they were."

- Yes, but there is a special science which investigates all the things related to the Bible and often one has to make conclusions starting from something indirect and circumstantial. Regarding the considered episode we can conclude that magi were rather pagans and not only pagans but prominent pagans, which actually means they were magicians in a common sense of the word. Another (rather religious) possible explanation is that they were ordinary pagans chosen by God for a mission (probably the Holy Spirit had descended on they and they got wisdom). Then we should make a suggestion about this mission. You have actually tried to do it. But in this case I want to emphasize that they remained to be referred to as magi, which indicates that they didn't repent of paganism (or magic).

Your more accurate consideration of John the Baptist' behaviour is essential, but even in this case magi look more confident about Jesus and his mission.

As to magic I'll try to explain my views later on, during all the discussions. We can first determine what is the common understanding of magic. As far as I know it is understood by Christians as an attempt to eat another forbidden fruit once again, so to speak. But the question is who forbids it and what exactly is forbidden. Manipulations with secret (unknown) powers of nature - is it forbidden? It is exactly what science do. The fruits of science can be good, isn't it? The question is whether we are in connection with God when we are doing anything. It's exactly what Castaneda's tolteks said, they only talking about Intention instead of God. They also focus our attention on the difference between "unknown" and "unknowable", which closely relates to the question what is forbidden and what is permitted. So my definition of magic is not such outlandish as it may appear.
Yes, astrology etc. is clearly condemned in the Gospel, but there were things which also were condemned in Old Testament, but Jesus broke those prohibitions. Why? - We have the only answer: because of his connection with God, with God's will (Intention in toltek terms). We can/may do anything when we are in such a connection.

 

[Fledge]

I'm not really sure what else I could argue about the magi, although I would not be surprised if they (some or all) remained as pagans for the rest of their lives.

But the question is who forbids it and what exactly is forbidden. Manipulations with secret (unknown) powers of nature - is it forbidden? It is exactly what science do. The fruits of science can be good, isn't it? The question is whether we are in connection with God when we are doing anything.

I know that I would argue that God forbids it. What exactly He forbids is somewhat debatable I suppose, although some things are fairly clearly laid out in the OT. Of course, this opens the whole discussion as to what parts of the OT law are still applicable today. At the moment, my time is quite limited, so I can't look up all the verses that would apply (or the meaning of the original word), but I do recall strong condemnations of "witchcraft", "sorcery", and seances (the referrence is specifically about "mediums and spiritists" I believe).

I would be extremely leery of "Manipulations with secret (unknown) powers of nature" as such powers are usually mentioned favorably only in Pagan and New Age type religions, which I would consider to be a rather poor recommendation. In short, it would take a great deal to convince me that any such power is the work of anything other than a demon, and even if it were not, I probably wouldn't use it anyway. Why? Because I should rely on God for strength, not some other power.

(Quick note, in the sentence "it is exactly what science do", the word "do" should be the word "does".) I wouldn't be inclined to view science as the manipulation of either unknown or secret powers of nature. Science deals with the physical realm, and I have never heard anyone claim that these powers of nature are anything physical (the fact that using these powers usually requires prayers and/or incantations sounds a loud warning to me).

I think it might be worth your mentioning which OT prohibitions Jesus broke so that we can discuss them. The only such breakings that I can recall were the little rules the Pharisees had set up, not the specific commands from God. If someone were to go around violating the rules laid out in the Bible, I would have some very big questions that would need answered before I would be willing to think about accepting what he teaches.

I do have a question for you though. I am unfamiliar with Castaneda's tolteks. Could you tell me what they are?

 

[urnotme]

Welcome to CF, Ramr. The magi were indeed led by a star, but the word translated "magi" in some English translations and "wise men" in others doesn't necessarily mean "magician(s)". That is one of the possible meanings, but there isn't any way for ust to be sure that such was the case.

Chrysalis Kat, I think I have to object to your examples. From the Biblical account, it would indeed appear that Joseph practiced divination, but this was before God commanded against it. The Urim and Thummim both seem to have been involved in determining God's will, but I'm not sure that they necessarily involve the use of magic as such. God commanded the Israelites to cast lots a number of times, and Acts records that the apostles once did the same after asking God to cast a perfect lot.

As for Daniel, he told Nebuchadnezzar (spelling?) that his knowledge wasn't the result of any talent or ability of his own, but a gift from God. It appears that he was placed over the wise men and astrologers of the kingdom because of his wisdom and ability to predict the future, but once again it would appear to be a gift of God, not magic the way it is commonly thought of. It is the same kind of thing with Pentecostals and Charismatics. Prophecy is viewed as the working of the Holy Spirit, not something "magical".

The Magi were probably preists of Zoasterism as that was a common religion of the time. Does it say wjere they came from, it says they were from the east but does it say what country or give any more info on them? I was wondering if they could have come from india.

 

[Eliyah]

First of all, this post is not meant to degrade or infringe on any person's beliefs or any faith of any religion, and of concern to every follower of Messiah.

Second, this post uses the true( Hebrew to English) names of YHWH and Yahshua the Messiah.

Third, not many people realize that the book of Revelation says that in the LAST DAYS the entire inhabbitants of the earth would be worshipping satan the dragon through his deception( Rev.12:9; Rev.13:3-4, .
Many people today worship, but they know not what or who, for Shaul( Paul) said "" there are lords many and gods many, and there is not in every man this knowledge.""( 1 Cor.8:5-7-).

In Isaiah 65:11 is a very interesting statement made by the Creator through Isaiah the prophet, which many people have never really investigated in the original texts of scripture.

The Old King James Version has this verse translated thus... ""But ye are they that forsake " the LORD",( Note YHWH==Strongs Exaustive Concordance, S.E.C.Heb.Num.3050,3068 , that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for " that troop",( Note GAD==GAWD=S.E.C. Heb. Num.1408,1409==A Babylonian Deity called Baal Gad), and that furnish the drink offering unto "that number"( or for fortune or money).""

This Babylonian Deity called Baal Gad was worshipped by the children of Israel ( Joshua 11:17; 12:7; 13:5-), and the true Creator considered it Idolatry.

If you look in to the "" Webster's Unabridged Deluxe Dictionary, Second Edition, Page 746, "" GAD, 1.IN THE BIBLE, a son of Jacob. 2. A tribe of Israel descended from him. 3. The land where this tribe lived. GAD, gad, interj. A mild oath or expression of suprise, disgust, e.t.c., A EUPHEMISM FOR GOD. ""

Then, when you look at the word "" Baal"( S.E.C. Heb.Num.1167,116, and one of its definitions is ""LORD"".

When the title of "" LORD GOD"" is transliterated back into the Hebrew, it is the same title of "" Baal Gad"", a Babylonian Deity that was condemned by YHWH.( Remember Old Eliyah the Prophet that faced the Baal prophets?).

This word " GOD==GAD==GAWD" is pronounced the same, and has been applied to the true Creator YHWH, in most all the English translations of scriptures.

The true Creator spoke through Jeremiah the prophet and said this would happen in the last days..."" How long shall this be in the heart( mind) of the prophets that prophesy lies?...Which think to cause my people to FORGET MY NAME( YHWH==YAH=3050,3068, see Psalms 68:4-)...as their fathers have forgotten MY NAME( YHWH==3050,306 for (Baal Gad==LORD GOD).""( Jer.23:26-27-).
Also, He says that He would remove the names( plural) of Balim( lord and god) out of their mouths( See also Hosea 2:16-17-).

How about getting an early start at doing that?

Have you investigated this matter fully?

The children of Israel was condemned for such Idolatry, and the Apostle Paul said, "" There are LORDS MANY and GODS MANY, and there is not in every man this knowledge.""( 1 Cor.8:5-7-).

YHWH commanded to NOT EVEN MENTION other deities( Exod.23:13, Joshua 23:7, Deut.5:7-), and the English " god==gad" is of pagan origin( See Encyclopedieas), even tracing back to the time of the Israelites.

To apply other pagan deities to YHWH is expressly forbidden, and violates the " 1st, 2nd, and 3rd" commandments( Exod.20:2-7-), as most all english translations of scriptures have done.

Even Solomon succommed to practiceing " Syncretisim", or combinning pagan deities to YHWH because of his 700 wives and 300 concubines, and he too was condemned for his Idolatry( 1 Kings 11:4-5,33-).

In every place that "" Ashtoroth==Astarte==Easter" was practiced, so was the worship of the Babylonian deity called "" Baal Gad=Lord God""( Judges 2:11,13, 1 Kings 11:33-), and it was condemned by YHWH= YAH.

The word "god" comes from the Old German ""Gott, Guth"", which originated from worship of tarus the bull( See All Encyclopedieas especially the Brittanica of word "god").

So did Solomon " think there was nothing wrong" with combinning pagan deities to YHWH either, but YAH certainly did think it was wrong, and this resulted in rending the Kingdom from him, and the split of the Kingdom, and the rejection of Solomon.

Question : Is it ok( in Yah's eyes) for Muslims to combine their "" Alah"( as their god=deity) to YHWH?

There are many examples in scriptures where the children of Israel were taken captive by other nation for practicing " syncretisim" of pagan deities to YHWH.

In ( Acts 14:12-15-) of the pagan Jupiter, which is another example of combining pagan deities to YHWH, but to the Romans, Jupiter was the suppreme being, but he was NOT the suppreme being according to Paul either.

It may not seem to make a difference to human beings, but it certainly does to YHWH, as His Word absolutely proves that it does matter.

The Hebrew words " EL" and " Elohim" existed long BEFORE( According to scriptures) and it was originally a pure word title applied to YAH; but pagan cultures adopted it and applied it to their deities; but the word " gad=god" was used exclusively to a pagan Babylonian deity of Baal( =lord) Gad(= god), and used for worship of taurus the bull( See Encyclopedieas).

Inspite of what commentaries, lexicons, e.t.c. say, the word " god= gad" is not a correct transliteration from the word " EL" in Hebrew.

The Titles of " EL and Elohim" was originally pure Titles applied to YAH, but the word " god=gad" was and is applied to a Babylonian deity, which is condemned in ( Isaiah 65:11-).

In ( Jer.8: it was prophesied that the scribes and translators would alter the scriptures texts.

And an example of that is by comparing N.T. texts as quoted from the original scriptures, with that of the O.T.texts.

Example of alteration from Hebrew to Greek to English is as follows below.

In the ( O.K.J.V.) of ( Matt.4:4; Luke 4:4-) where Messiah said ""...but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of "" GOD( English)"", and "" Theos( Greek)"".

Here, the Messiah quoted( compare) from ( Deut.8:3-)
which should read, "" .... but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of "" THE LORD"( K.J.V.)( =S.E.C. Heb.Numbs. 3050,3068==YAH) doth man live.""

Why is the word "" god"" used in ( Matt.4:4; Luke 4:4-) and the word "" LORD" is used in ( Deut.8:3-), but both leave out the true name of YHWH=YAH( 3050,306??

The Greeks used their " deity" of " Theos" in translation, and the English merely used theirs of "" God"", but the original text says "" YHWH=YAH "( 3050,306.

This is one prime example of alteration and syncretisim, and covering up the true Creator's name with pagan titles in other cultures languages.

To the Greeks and Romans, their " Theos deity" was Zeus and Jupiter, not the true Creator YHWH=YAH, and whenever the scriptures were translated into other cultures languages, the translators merely inserted their own " Deity" in place of the true Name of YAH.

This may come as an EYE OPENER and a shock to many, but the Book of Revelation says that in the last days the whole earth would be worshipping satan the devil( See Rev.12:9; Rev.13:3-4,8; Rev.13: through his deception

Now do you think that traditional christianity is not deceived too? People better think again.

Paul certainly NEVER used the pagan title of " theos", because Paul admitted that he observed the entirety of the law( Acts 24:14), and that would include ( Exod.20:2-7; Exod.23:13, Deut.5:7-).

Also, Paul was against their " pagan theos of Jupiter" in ( Acts 14:11-15-).

But, no matter how much proof from scriptures that is given to people, and even examples such as Solomon that practiced " syncretisim", which was, and still is prohibitted and condemned by YHWH, people will still do what they see right in their own eyes.

I do believe that there are honest people out there, and those who are truely TRUTH SEEKERS will eventually see this truth.

Otherwise, how could satan the devil deceive the whole world and its inhabitants into worshipping him in THE END TIMES( Rev.12:9; Rev.13:3-4, ?

Think about it, and pray about it.


Eliyah C.

 

[Ramr]

Eliyah, whatever your faith is I don't intend to degrade it. You provide an interesting investigation, but I doubt that YAH is not a pagan deity too. Because he behaves just like pagan clan deities, when he picks out Peculiar People among other his creatures. Or possibly, the consciousness of that people had created the divinity in the image and likeness of themselves. Yes, I think God is mainly a creature of men as regards to his temper. Another interesting question is the origin of monotheism and paganism according to OT. Did Adam adhere to a monotheistic religion? If he did, was he a peculiar man?

One more problem: the origin of Christian Trinity. This most important doctrine in Christianity is also the most vague one as regards to its origin. I think because the doctrine obviously came from pagan religions.

 

[Ramr]

I do have a question for you though. I am unfamiliar with Castaneda's tolteks. Could you tell me what they are?

Fledge, Castaneda's books are something like a magician Bible for me. It's the best I ever read. He told about an astonishing magician tradition which was unknown before. However, his two first books can somewhat mislead as regards to true sense of those sorcerers (tolteks, if I spell right in English) teaching, if one is unfamiliar with it. So, I consider the teaching as a sound basis for the analysis what is magic in general.

I have to finish now, so I'll complete the answer later on.
************************************************

I have mentioned the problem of synthesis below. From that point of view, I think Castaneda has NOT completed the task. Probably it was not his mission. The toltek teaching in his accounts still brings an impress of the old (non-abstract) magic. But Castaneda has certainly given material in plenty in order to we can make sense of it and accomplish the task.

 

[Ramr]

Fledge,

"I wouldn't be inclined to view science as the manipulation of either unknown or secret powers of nature. Science deals with the physical realm, and I have never heard anyone claim that these powers of nature are anything physical (the fact that using these powers usually requires prayers and/or incantations sounds a loud warning to me)."

- There was time when magnetic field was one of unknown powers of nature, which might not have been considered by people of that time as something physical because of its intangeble nature. They might also consider it as something devilish. You see, science always deals with unknown. But let's recall what was the problem of the Fall. Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, i.e. they came to know something unknown for them before. Thus, from the one hand we have science dealing with unknown, from the other hand we have religious prohibitions for at least a part of knowledge. Therefore, we must have a criterion to differentiate between allowed and forbidden knowledge. In general the criterion cannot be formalized in the form of a list where forbidden items would be enumerated. Simply because human experience moves towards generality or abstraction. I think Christian Church came to a stop in its development long ago, so it cannot offer something more then a list like "astrology, chiromancy, cartomancy, spiritism and so on". But the magic didn't stop to develop towards generality and abstraction, as we can see in Castaneda's books (actually not only there; there are many excellent books on abstract magic and occultism). Moreover, abstract magicians themselves give a certain answer about the difference between unknown and unknowable, as I have mentioned above.

I'll proceed later on.

 

[SackLunch]

Yikes, another "christian pagan" type thread.

Paganism is the worship of the earth. Christianity is the worship of the one true God through His son, Jesus Christ. God tells us not to engage in pagan earth worship, magic, sorcery, and the like. Those are the things of darkness. Therefore, the two cannot be mixed - they are diametrically opposed to one another. You cannot marry God and Satan in with your personal beliefs.

God makes it clear that it is only through Jesus Christ that we are saved. It is only through acknowledging your sins and asking Him to come into your life and heart that you gain entrance into Heaven. There is no other way. Not earth worship, not self-worship, not magic, nothing. As the Bible says, there is no other name under Heaven by which men must be saved. Only the name of Jesus.

 

[DaveS]

That merits an sacklunch! Well said! Mind you an intersting thing I heard is that paganism is the step below Christianity in that pagans find it easy to step up to Christianity hence all the early conversions in Britain for example.

 

[Ramr]

Amen sacklunch? What is it? My English skills are not so good... About Britain, by the way. Sorcerer Merlin helped king Arthur's coming to power, who disseminated Christianity. It was obviously Merlin's intention, so it is an interesting continuation of the subject on magi who came to infant Jesus. From this point of view paganism (rather magic as the highest form of paganism) looks too wise to be the step below Christianity. I think Paganism and Monotheism are the stages of cyclic historical process where they replace each other. I think it's time now when Paganism returns, but it is not the same Paganism as it was earlier. Because magic become abstract. Now we can synthesize these two doctrines without any contradictions. In fact, Castaneda has closely approached to the synthesis.

 

[DaveS]

Simply err.. no.

Amen sacklunch? What is it? My English skills are not so good..

It is a latin word/phrase that means 'so be it' or 'the end'. It is used at the end of every Christian prayer. It is pronounced Ar-men but some people pronounce it as A-men.

About Britain, by the way. Sorcerer Merlin helped king Arthur's coming to power, who disseminated Christianity.

Although unfortunately, merlin does not and did not exist as did Arthur in the legend form that we know it as. The real King Arthur, King Arth was a dark age king who was immortalised by the writings of romantic, mediaeval scholars. How do we know this? Lances did not exist in the dark ages. Armour (as it is portrayed) did not exist, castles (as is portrayed) did not exist, Camelot did not exist - this came from a poem where the writer was trying to find something to rhyme with 'lancelot'... do you want me to go on?

It was obviously Merlin's intention, so it is an interesting continuation of the subject on magi who came to infant Jesus.

and you will notice that they immediately converted to Christianity and considered this a step up.

I think Paganism and Monotheism are the stages of cyclic historical process where they replace each other. I think it's time now when Paganism returns, but it is not the same Paganism as it was earlier. Because magic become abstract. Now we can synthesize these two doctrines without any contradictions. In fact, Castaneda has closely approached to the synthesis.

Christianity and Paganism can never co-exist. It simply doesn't, they are complete contradictions of the other.

 

[Ramr]

Fledge,

"I think it might be worth your mentioning which OT prohibitions Jesus broke so that we can discuss them. The only such breakings that I can recall were the little rules the Pharisees had set up, not the specific commands from God. If someone were to go around violating the rules laid out in the Bible, I would have some very big questions that would need answered before I would be willing to think about accepting what he teaches."

- I cannot recall the Gospel text where Jesus was talking about it, but I remember his words like "... earlier, but now I say to you ...". For example, Jews had the revenge law "yey for yey", but Jesus had introduced another rule which orders to forgive offenders many times.

Also I'm not sure that the "Saturday rule" which Jesus broke was one of "the little rules the Pharisees had set up". Anyway, no matter how little those rules were, it were given by Judaic prophets who expressed God's will. So the God's will can change with society development, and therefore it cannot be formalized in a complete list of main and little rules, although the main rules like "don't kill" don't change, of course. For instance, Church cannot find support in Holy Scripture in its struggle against human cloning. God doesn't give rules like "don't practice magic". We know only that apostles condemned it. Probably there were things worth to be condemned, I don't say that all the forms of witchcraft are something good. Fortune-telling is forbidden but divine prophets practiced it. So we can conclude that fortune-telling itself is certainly not a wrong, but the question is whether the practicians are connected with God (whether they are in accordance with God's will). I merely generalize this criterion on the magic in its the most abstract form.

 

[Ramr]

DaveS,

it is a legend, although "smoke cannot be without fire" (Russian proverb). You have to agree with me, King Arthur's and Merlin's ideals are quite lofty and at least in peaple's consciousness their paganism is not in contradiction with their Christianity.

"and you will notice that they immediately converted to Christianity and considered this a step up."

- No, I've written about it above: there are no evidences in the Gospel that they were converted to Christianity. Certainly, they understood or foresaw Christianity (just like Merlin from the legend), but they are mentioned as "magi", not as Christians. Unlike apostle Paul who initially struggled against Christianity and then was converted.



Of course paganism and Christianity cannot co-exist in those meanings they have now. But I am talking about quite different meanings.

 

[Ramr]

Sacklunch,

Here in Russia many people honestly believed in communism, I did too, because we were victims of propaganda. The communism doctrine itself was not investigated in society consciousness properly, in spite of the fact that we studied it in all the educational institutions and heard about it everywhere. We spoke with slogans and we believed indeed in what we speak. I think because of it the communism fell so easily. I don't see the difference with Christianity now. I think it is exactly the same situation in essence. The space-time scale is really different, but not the essence.
We have an experience of destroying ideals, so believe me, proper investigation of the very basis of Christianity is the only way to save it.