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Christianity and pagan concepts?

Nick316

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Street Knight

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I can't absolutely declare that these claims are false.
I can tell you that the "fish" symbol has been used from early christian times. Apparently the Koine Greek word for fish is ΙΧΘΥΣ using the first letters could be an abbreviation for (english translation) Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior. According to historians, the fish symbol was used as a recognition signal between early Christians.
Regarding the use of the Cross or Crucifix by early Christians; remember that in the culture of the Roman Empire, death by crucifixion was a shameful and terrible thing. The cross was an object of fear and intimidation (and meant to be so). Since there were other symbols available; fish, dove, lamb, etc I would think that they would use these. Not until the cultural emotion had passed, and possibly the sacrificial atonement was further understood, would the cross / crucifix become symbolic of Christ's sacrifice.
Regarding the Stake / Cross allegation, I would say that this is probably a smoke and mirrors issue. First remember that languages do not always readily translate one to another. So sometimes there can be an academic argument that the word translated as Cross could also be translated as stake, but usually it depends on the context.
Historically, the Roman Empire used crucifixion as execution for criminals, slaves, and non-citizens. (incidentally, the words crucifixion, crucify come from the Latin root for cross) It is generally accepted that crucifixion was on a cross. There is disagreement on the form of the cross. Although Christian tradition and symbolism indicates a "Latin Cross" (t) most evidence indicates that the usual cross was a "Tau Cross" (T). There were, and could be, variations between different Legions, Garrisons, Individuals, and over time.
Death on the cross is by asphyxia (inability to breathe). The individual is stretched out and the only way to get a full breath is to pull yourself up and breathe in (they could breathe out in up or down position). After a long time the person would become too weak to pull up and would slowly suffocate. This is why the Roman Soldiers were unbelieving that Jesus was already dead after only a few hours and used a spear (probably a Pilum) to open his heart. This was a Roman Army method of verifying death of enemies.

Sorry for the long post. Hope this helps.
 
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Street Knight

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Nick 316,
Did some further browsing on the link you listed. Always be suspicious of a web site that does not tell you WHO they are (person or organization). Some of the information is correct as far as it goes. BUT, it is apparent that only the worst source is shown, or is quoted out of context, etc. For example, there is more than a page showing that Martin Luther did not go far enough in promoting the equality of women. Possibly true, but the 1500's were not a very gender enlightened time.
In short, whoever published this web site:
1) has a VERY STRONG BIAS against Christianity. (The last page has a supportive link to every religion that ever existed, except Christian Denominations. Even suggesting Jedi-ism be considered a religion)
2) has too much time on their hands.
 
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Nick316

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Nick 316,
Did some further browsing on the link you listed. Always be suspicious of a web site that does not tell you WHO they are (person or organization). Some of the information is correct as far as it goes. BUT, it is apparent that only the worst source is shown, or is quoted out of context, etc. For example, there is more than a page showing that Martin Luther did not go far enough in promoting the equality of women. Possibly true, but the 1500's were not a very gender enlightened time.
In short, whoever published this web site:
1) has a VERY STRONG BIAS against Christianity. (The last page has a supportive link to every religion that ever existed, except Christian Denominations. Even suggesting Jedi-ism be considered a religion)
2) has too much time on their hands.
Thanks. I found an article that apparently confirms that Jesus was crucified on a cross- History of crucifixion and archeological proof of the cross, as opposed to a stake.
 
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hedrick

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Just so you know:

You've been stumbling across a variety of links. The Wikipedia stuff you've posted is mainstream, although not accepted by conservatives. This one is fringe.

One of the big changes in NT scholarship in the last 50 years is a much better understanding of 1st Cent Judaism, and thus a much better understanding of just how Christianity is rooted in Judaism. Now obviously wider Roman culture is bound to have some influence on how Christians talked about their faith, just as the general American culture affects American Christians. But you should be very suspicious of people claiming that Christianity is rehashed pagan ideas. If you check out their citations, you'll find they are either early 20th Cent, fringe scholars, or both.

Note that this is not a conservative / liberal issue. Liberal folks who don't believe in Biblical inerrancy are heavily involved in the studies of the Jewish origin of Christianity, and don't believe that Christianity is pagan any more than conservatives do. One of the best-known very liberal scholars, Bart Ehrman, just wrote a book answering the "Jesus is a myth" guys.

However it is probably true that we can't be absolutely sure what shape cross was used. There's some reason to think that roman soldiers didn't always do the same thing. Sometimes they would get "creative" in how they killed people. The conventional cross was common, and the NT account seems to imply it, but I wouldn't place too much reliance on the exact shape of the cross. I don't see that it matters.
 
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joey_downunder

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In addition to what the others have posted, perhaps seeing early writings from 1st century or early churches would help you? Who would know better what was believed back then- people who lived in that early time period or a blogger/website creator in the 21st century?

Quote from Josephus, a JEW from the 1st century AD:

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,541541 A.D. 33, April 3. those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day;542542 April 5. as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. Josephus: - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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Albion

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I found an article- Pagan origins of Christianity: pre-Christian symbols, festivals, terms and concepts

that says the cross was not adopted until the 6th century, and that Jesus was crucified on a stake. It also says a lot of other things that are really bothering me....

Can someone verify that those claims are false?

Jehovah's Witness theology belongs under "Unorthodox Theology," Nick. It's not Christian History unless you want to discuss the founding of a new denomination in the late 1800s but Charles Taze Russell's or some of the many changes in its belief system that have occurred since then.
 
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ViaCrucis

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As for the cross:

The statement that Jesus had to be crucified on a stake is a significant Jehovah's Witness claim in an attempt to claim that the Christian symbol of the plain cross is somehow "Pagan". It's a rather shallow argument as I'll try and explain.

The argument usually goes that the Greek word stauros means "an upright stake", well sort of, it's the Greek word that was used to refer to the Roman crux or cross. The Romans were rather inventive when it came to crucifixions, there was no single type of crux, the simplest cross was the crux simplex, the simple cross, and it was simply an upright pole. But very often the crux simplex was affixed with a patibulum, the crossbeam. The result would be either a T-cross or a t-cross. The Romans also used X-shaped crosses to crucify their victims.

So what sort of cross was Jesus crucified on? Was it simply the crux simplex, a simple upright stake? While the New Testament doesn't spell it out, our historical knowledge and a few key details from the New Testament are perhaps quite relevant.

The Romans liked efficiency, if you're going to be crucifying people you're going to do it efficiently. It's not efficient to construct a brand new cross every time you have to go and crucify one of those uppity slaves or political deviants, that costs too much money and is a waste of resources. Instead you have a designated location and re-use the same instrument of execution. As such it's most likely that Golgotha had a set of fixed crosses ready to be used, simple upright stakes that remained and could be used again and again.

Now we are told that Jesus carried His cross to Golgotha. Christian art typically shows Him carrying an entire cross, that's unlikely for the reasons given above. So more than likely Jesus is carrying His patibulum, the crossbeam, which His executioners could use to lift Him up into place upon the simplex, thus the simplex plus patibulum would have created a T or t-shaped cross. It's the most likely scenario given the facts available to us.

Was it a T-cross or a t-cross? Well that's anyone's guess. It could be either.

In the end it doesn't matter, Jesus could have been crucified on a crux simplex, or an X-shaped cross and it wouldn't change anything--it's just unlikely given that He had to carry something to the place of execution and that Pilate had a plaque placed over His head reading out mockingly that He was King of the Jews.

So that's the story as far as the "upright stake" issue is concerned. Not impossible, but less probable than the more traditional T/t-cross view.

Now, while Christians didn't feature cross symbols in their iconography quite so often until the 3rd or 4th century, that doesn't mean the use of the cross as a symbol was absent. Ancient Patristic sources speak of Christians signing themselves with the cross during prayer from very ancient times, the most ancient way of crossing oneself was to do so upon the forehead, the lips, and then the heart, this would eventually become the sign of the cross used by Christians today across the world (among Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans/Episcopalians, and even some Methodists).

"At every forward step and movement, at every going in and out, when we put on our clothes and shoes, when we bathe, when we sit at table, when we light the lamps, on count, on seat, in all the ordinary actions of daily life, we trace upon the forehead the sign [of the cross]" - Tertullian of Carthage, De Corona, ch. 3, circa 200 AD

Tertullian understands this to be an ancient and widespread practice, it's just one of those things Christians do and have seemingly always done. He says there is no biblical injunction to do it, but that it is the widespread tradition and custom found everywhere in his time.

The cross, therefore, seems to have been fairly significant as a potent symbol of faith, even without it being a dominant iconographic symbol.

There's also the interesting case of a piece of ancient anti-Christian graffiti, dated sometime in the 2nd or 3rd century,

images


The text says, "Alexamenos worships his God", which clearly shows a man worshiping a crucified figure.

The reason for the donkey head seems to be connected to an ancient bit of Greek ignorance concerning Jews and their religion, the Greeks were under the misconception that Jews worshiped the head of an ass, a view that seems to date back to the time when Judea was ruled by Greek powers, first under the Macedonian Empire, and then subsequently by the Ptolemaic kingdom and then the Seleucids, until the Maccabean Revolt of 164 BC. Exactly how this confusion came about is a matter of speculation, but is rather fascinating when coupled with this bit of graffiti.

As added trivia, near this was inscribed another graffito, reading simply "Alexamenos fidelis", Alexamenos is faithful.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Luvtosew

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Several years ago due to health , I had time to research all this stuff. I had been in the RCC for over 50 years and never questioned anything, but I got to say the bible as much as I love to read and study it didn't make sense. I have studied all early religions, Persian, Greek , Egyptian, Roman, the early history, as I wanted to know where the Bible came from to be frank I know it didn't drop from the sky. See the word pagan in and of itself is not bad, just means the people in the country didn't come into towns and worship like everyone else, so they were called pagans.

you may try and read all the early church fathers, but that gets one just into more contradictions. I believe in God, is what I have now, I now longer believe in the virgin birth or the trinity except in a allegorical sense. The Bible had become very deep meaning to me now that I understand what its saying, and it is not to be taken literally, there are hidden meanings, but then they are not hidden at all.

What church do you belong to? I also recommend reading all of Josephus, esp. his bio and read slow, make sure you are knowledgeable about the NT first tho.

Don't feel bad, Mother Theresa had 60 years of doubt, darkness of the soul they call it. God created everything and God loves us and we give our love away. That is the what God wants from us is to live and love others.
 
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steamforthis

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Luvtosew

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I do not see how they are metaphorical at all.

Neither is there any evidence that it is not to be taken literally. It is quite the contrary

Can / Should we interpret the Bible as literal?

There is no virgin birth in Isa, and I don't do Got questions. I do not take the bible literally and if you do have you plucked out an eye yet. I belive the nativity stories are made up. The bible is not a history book, except in how people of that time viewed God , and they do get into some wars.
 
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steamforthis

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There is no virgin birth in Isa, and I don't do Got questions. I do not take the bible literally and if you do have you plucked out an eye yet.

:doh:

A) If you don't take the Bible even remotely literally, why believe in God at all?

B) There is a difference between a detailed foretelling of events and just pure metaphorical language.

I belive the nativity stories are made up. The bible is not a history book, except in how people of that time viewed God , and they do get into some wars.

So you believe the Bible to be fantasy?
 
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Luvtosew

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:doh:

A) If you don't take the Bible even remotely literally, why believe in God at all?

B) There is a difference between a detailed foretelling of events and just pure metaphorical language.



So you believe the Bible to be fantasy?

I believe God created the heaven and everything else, that is why. I find the Bible very deep and rewarding, many lessons are in it and how to apply it to our life. Its actually a very deep book and very intelligent people wrote it, very inspired, but its not a history book.
 
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steamforthis

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I believe God created the heaven and everything else, that is why. I find the Bible very deep and rewarding, many lessons are in it and how to apply it to our life. Its actually a very deep book and very intelligent people wrote it, very inspired, but its not a history book.

If the Word of God is historically inaccurate, it is completely invalid as a source and there is no way to differentiate the truth from lies.
 
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steamforthis

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Please tell me what is historical about the Bible. It is not a history book. There are no lies in it.

If it's not historically accurate, it's a lie.

"I belive the nativity stories are made up."

So the Bible made it up?

If the virgin birth did not occur as the Bible said it did, it's a lie.
 
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