a third of the angels went on to follow satan.There has to be a reason for why someone would choose something while another person something else entirely, however. Even the devil. God created everything, so as part of free will, he must have created the possibility to choose wrongly. So why was it Lucifer, and not any of the other angels that chose to disobey God? Was it random chance? Was it something in his past the Bible does not mention? Is it some spark that God planted in him, but not the others? (Thought that would defeat the purpose of free will).
So the person who used their free will to choose God, and the other who used their free will to reject God, what's the difference between them? Is the one who chose God somehow a better person than the one who rejected God? How did the one who chose God overcome the hardness of his own heart, and his own love of darkness, to come to a love of God? And why didn't the one who rejected God do the same things? Is one more righteous than the other, or are we all born into sin?
a third of the angels went on to follow satan.
I'm not sure they weren't asked to volunteer.
I would not argue that Satan rebelled, but I'm not sure the traditional teaching of when he rebelled is accurate. The traditional teaching is that Satan rebelled prior to creation--primarily because of his deception of Eve in Eden. But his appearances in Job and in Kings in Chronicles appearing in Heaven and taking assignments from God makes that a very odd "rebellion."
Rather, in Revelation 12 we see a genuine rebellion with the result being what we'd expect: Satan no longer has any place in heaven. The timing earmarks given for that rebellion place it at the time of Jesus on earth or slightly afterward.
My suspicion, then, is that Satan and his angels still had a fealty relationship with God, but as an adversary to man--a role assigned to him. I think the actual rebellion occurred when Jesus became man and entered the realm that Satan presumed he had been given.
I'm not sure they weren't asked to volunteer.
I would not argue that Satan rebelled, but I'm not sure the traditional teaching of when he rebelled is accurate. The traditional teaching is that Satan rebelled prior to creation--primarily because of his deception of Eve in Eden. But his appearances in Job and in Kings in Chronicles appearing in Heaven and taking assignments from God makes that a very odd "rebellion."
Rather, in Revelation 12 we see a genuine rebellion with the result being what we'd expect: Satan no longer has any place in heaven. The timing earmarks given for that rebellion place it at the time of Jesus on earth or slightly afterward.
My suspicion, then, is that Satan and his angels still had a fealty relationship with God, but as an adversary to man--a role assigned to him. I think the actual rebellion occurred when Jesus became man and entered the realm that Satan presumed he had been given.
Luke 10: 18 Jesus replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Free will only exists when you don't know the outcome.Why do I believe that free will is part of our lives, and part of Christianity?
To me the evidence is that both good and evil exists. Instead of us being God's empty vessels - His puppets - He gave us true souls and true free will. To me it looks like He valued free will more, but all the same He knew the price of free will as well.
So as Christians we are free... to choose God. And as non-Christians, something else. But that we chose God in our free will means that the choice will have significantly more value than just saying so as a slave of a master.
In my experience, this is also one of the major differences between Christianity and Islam. While God waits for the Christian "prodigal son" to finally return home, Muslims see as their strict duty to serve Allah.
Christianity is bittersweet that way. But so is life.
TO reject God, one must reject that which God is, as well as what He desires. In reality, just as a person who is in agreement with the nature of who you are will like you upon meeting (striking it off on common ground), the person who is in line with the nature and will of God will not reject God upon meeting Him.So the person who used their free will to choose God, and the other who used their free will to reject God, what's the difference between them? Is the one who chose God somehow a better person than the one who rejected God? How did the one who chose God overcome the hardness of his own heart, and his own love of darkness, to come to a love of God? And why didn't the one who rejected God do the same things? Is one more righteous than the other, or are we all born into sin?
And thus one, on that evidence and of their own Free Will, becomes a Muslim. Wonderful.But there is sufficient evidence in creation of God's existence and character--see Psalm 19.
Then be good enough to explain God forcing Balaam and Jonah and St. Paul and others to do as He bade them as opposed to what they wanted to do and what their Free Will was having them do. And please don't insult anyone's intelligence by saying that God didn't force them to obey. Jonah in particular tried his best to escape doing as he was bidden, and when he did finally obey, he did so grudgingly, and was pointedly displeased with the end results.Love does not force itself on another person. It is naturally known that if a man forces his girlfriend or wife into doing something, then he is not loving, but abusive. This is not something we need to ponder on. We know it within ourselves, and it is also commanded against in Scripture, so we know that it is sin to force someone against their will.
The answer is in Scripture (Rom 10:14,15). When the Gospel message goes out they will both know and understand. That is called the power of the Gospel unto salvation (Rom 1:16). And the Gospel must be preached to all nations before the coming of Christ:How can anyone freely choose something that he does not know or understand?
That is a clear misrepresentation, and once again the appropriate Scriptures have been ignored.Yeah, we have Free Will, but all it's good for is making us freely choose to sin.
Did God open their brains up and rewire them? Did He open their programming up like a bunch of lines of code and change it? Or did He interact with them from external sources? God didn't puppet string Jonah and Paul and Balaam into obeying. He was coercive, but certainly not internally changing their will to match His. They changed their will. In the case of Paul, Paul thought that he WAS following God! He was so zealous about his actions because he truly believed that he was a righteous warrior for God. God revealed to him that he was deluded, clearing up the delusion. In the case of Jonah, Jonah let his discrimination against the Ninevites, in the end, still get the best of him. God did not prevent him from being who he truly was in the end. God was being a parent to Jonah who made sure the dishes got done, even though the child didn't want to do the dishes. But what He didn't do was tie strings to Jonah and make Jonah do what He wanted without any choice in the matter. Had Jonah stuck to his guns, God had plenty of other options to go to. And in the case of Balaam, God was the parent to a child that was being bullied, but whose parent was much more powerful than the bully or the bully's parent would ever be. God didn't make Balaam be nice to Israel by anything internal. In fact, God didn't directly effect Balaam at all. He effected Balaam's donkey. Like many bullies, Balaam was going to bully Israel because it seemed easy and simple, though his apparent inability to simply lie to the king he served bit him in the rear. I always asked myself why he had the scruples to attempt to curse Israel but was above lying and simply telling the king that he had cursed Israel.Then be good enough to explain God forcing Balaam and Jonah and St. Paul and others to do as He bade them as opposed to what they wanted to do and what their Free Will was having them do. And please don't insult anyone's intelligence by saying that God didn't force them to obey. Jonah in particular tried his best to escape doing as he was bidden, and when he did finally obey, he did so grudgingly, and was pointedly displeased with the end results.
Yeah, we have Free Will, but all it's good for is making us freely choose to sin. Our Free Will, like the rest of us, is corrupt. Left to ourselves, it will lead us to destruction with terrible certainty, unless God intervenes to save us.
Ah, so if I torture you into signing a confession, then you're actually doing it of your Free Will, right? That's what I'm hearing.He was coercive, but certainly not internally changing their will to match His. They changed their will.
As what heresiarch, or jihadist, or what have you, does not?[In the case of Paul, Paul thought that he WAS following God!
By lovingly knocking him down, striking him blind and telling him to knock it off. Any why was St. Paul "kicking against the goads" if it was just his Free Will being adjusted? Ever hear the the phrase "dragged kicking and screaming"?God revealed to him that he was deluded, clearing up the delusion.
<Laugh> So Jonah just needed a little prodding, in the form of being tossed into a stormy sea and being eaten by a fish and the vomited out on shore. Nah, no arm twisting there. All pure Free Will.In the case of Jonah, Jonah let his discrimination against the Ninevites in the end, still get the best of him. God did not prevent him from being who he truly was in the end.
Sure, Jonah could have Freely Willed to stay in the fish and be digested. And if you sign the confession, then you've simply chosen of your Free Will to pick up the pen rather than having bamboo shoots shoved under your fingernails.But what He didn't do was tie strings to Jonah and make Jonah do what He wanted without any choice in the matter.
Who do you reckon that angel was working for? "No, Al Capone didn't kill those people, he had a button man do it." Big difference.God didn't make Balaam be nice to Israel by anything internal. In fact, God didn't directly effect Balaam at all.
Good to see that you just completely ignored the Scriptures he posted to the point that you intentionally excluded them from your quote of his post. That's misrepresentation by textbook definition. I guess it doesn't matter what Scripture says when it contradicts Hellenistic FatalismBaloney.
Ah, so if I torture you into signing a confession, then you're actually doing it of your Free Will, right? That's what I'm hearing.
As what heresiarch, or jihadist, or what have you, does not?
By lovingly knocking him down, striking him blind and telling him to knock it off. Any why was St. Paul "kicking against the goads" if it was just his Free Will being adjusted? Ever hear the the phrase "dragged kicking and screaming"?
And yes, each sin is an act of Free Will. That's all that Free Will is good for. Our Free Will isn't free. It's corrupted, as we are (because we are, really). And God can, and will, have us do His will whether we want to or not. He is, after all, God. The "Poor God, He can't override our Free Will" thing is the worst kind of rubbish.
Through faith
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