Christianity and Existentialism

[-=Burnt Toast=-]

What do people think about existentialism in relation to christianity? Im really not sure myslef as i have some friends who are really into existentialism and some things that the philosophy says, and they way in which they deal with part (especially making your own meaning for life) are bugging me. I sometimes feel that they might be right and seem to be valid? Im really worried that i may be betraying god in feeling this way. Its not a lot but there have been a few odd occasions. What do you guys think?? Is it possible to combine the two?

 

[Brimshack]

Have you read any Kierkegaard Burnt Toast? How about Karl Jaspers? Existentialist views do not necessarilypreclude belief in God, though they should preclude many of the pseudo-objectifications that people use in their God talk. Existentialists would deny many of the claims that Christians make about their reasons for doing this or believing that, but there have been Existentialists who presented the decision to believe in terms relatively consistent with Existentialism.

 

[foolsparade]

=Burnt Toast=, as "the shack" pointed out there were or are existentialist theism such as with Soren Kierkegaard. He was largly responsible for the birth of this philosphical movement. Soren actual wanted to "save" Christianity from its tendency to apply rationalism to the problems of faith. Soren implied that religious belief cannot be justified through reason but only by a "leap of faith" and if FREELY CHOSEN, is far more authentic than an unexamined conformity to dogma. His analysis of course enraged the church and he was made an outcast. Oh well at least he tried.

"Without risk there is no faith...If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe..."
Kierkegaard.

Albert Camus is another great writer that may be of interest to you. His views are slightly different than other Existentialist writers such as Sartre. Camus' book, The Myth of Sisyphus", is a masterpiece of modern existentialist thought in my opinion. Its the story of a man condemned eternally to push a huge rock up a hill, only to have it roll back down to the bottom. Every human endeavor according to Camus is charcterized by this absurdity. Life has no meaning and only leads to death. Therefore, whatever purpose or personal fulfillment we derive from our actions lies in our commitment to them. Sisyphus overcomes the nothingness of existence, by giving himself purpose through his actions so to speak.

"The gods had condemned Sisyphus to ceaselessly rolling a rock to the top of a mountain, whence the stone would fall back of its own weight. They had thought with some reason that there is no more dreadful punishment than futile and hopeless labor. The Myth of Sisyphus

"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy... The Myth of Sisyphus

 

[-=Burnt Toast=-]

yes, i have read both sartre and camus.. but i tend to feel that to make meaning for yourself, its rather difficult to have a god orfaith in him, as we are ment to take our lifes meaning to be that we are here to serve him?

 

[foolsparade]

existentialism does make god out to be most irrelevent. This philosophy is closer to reality than Christianity could ever hope for. as Camus writes:

"Since the order of the world is shaped by death, mightn't it be better for God if we refuse to believe in Him, and struggle with all our might against death without raising our eyes towards the heaven where He sits in silence?" from "The Plague."

you write: " as we are ment to take our lifes meaning to be that we are here to serve him?"

if you chose to look at life that way, well I feel sorry for you. Actually I don't feel sorry for you. Your statement is incorrect and illogical to say the least. Would you rather live an active life full of creativity and discoveries, or a reactive life, filled with apprehension, dispair, fear, and the feeling of being chained to an ideal that is impossible for you to live up?

 

[Michali]

Existence itself is meaningless without the Christian point of view. I tell you, there is no difference between good and evil. Action or no action. All things suddenly haven't any balance, and chaos rules all existence. With the theory (or Fact) of God all balance is attained and the purpose in life is found. Suppose the big bang theory is correct. Retrace the universe back to it's small origins. The matter exisists. But-- Now this requires extreme abstract thought-- what system is this in? Existence (or Creation) is a concept of a Constant. That Constant is God. Moses found that God's name (back then a name was an attribute) is I AM. Note that this is no concept thought up by a very very old story teller. God himself addressed His Being as I AM. Meaning his sole attribute is the fact that he exists, yet is the very creator of the concept of existence. The wisest thing for a person to do as a non-believer is to do whatever appears to please him and if he dies in the process-- so what then?-- his life was of no meaning anyway. He has disturbed the great nothingness. The meaning to life is to live for ever. This is a promise to those who will put their faith in their Creator. A Creator who has done everything so that we might gain eternal life. Take this into thought-- If there is no God: A man will find wisdom if there was some act that he could do to cause him to live longer. His struggle for more LIFE is not meaningless. About the purpose God has for his children-- Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, the things God has in store for the one that loves Him. If in one "God-week" the universe was made... what new, inconcievable thing will God do when the Eighth day's morning brings our King into power? I tell you, we are in the evening of the Sabbath. God is resting for our sake. This life will be terribly insignificant in comparison to what will come.

 

[Brimshack]

If life is meaningless without a Christian point of view, then how am I able to talk about it or anything else. Communication entails meaning. And if people communicate, then they are exchanging meaning. How am I able to act if life is meaningless? I should waiste away, lacking any motivation to act altogether.

And while we are at it, if a simple human lifespan is devoid of meaning, how exactly does stretching it's duration out into eternity endow it with any meaning that wasn't there to begin with. Infinity x 0 = 0.

…Honestly, I can't figure out how any Christian could interpret the Bible literally. Near as I can tell most Christian rhetoric fails to show an appreciation for the literal meaning of ANYTHING.

 

[Michali]

As I was saying: Reality should not be if there was no God. I'm saying there is meaning when there is a God. I do not know why you think that speaking has some sort of magical property of giving purpose while conveying meaning. If there was no God: It would make sense to try to live forever. Being in a "life state" with all kinds of chances and actions is logically better than to enter an unknown state of nothingness. Life continuing life. But really, all is illogical if there is no God. About Christian theology: All things can be taken litterally without being incorrect. Some may say the Writings are vague, but we must remember that these are a human account from thousands of years ago. In these days, it is becoming very difficult for Christians to view their beliefs in this way. God is looking for love. God will commend us with great measure for giving him love through all of the faith we now require.

Thankyou for your post Brimshack. It made me think.

 

[Freodin]

Existence itself is meaningless without the Christian point of view. I tell you, there is no difference between good and evil. Action or no action. All things suddenly haven't any balance, and chaos rules all existence. With the theory (or Fact) of God all balance is attained and the purpose in life is found. Suppose the big bang theory is correct. Retrace the universe back to it's small origins. The matter exisists. But-- Now this requires extreme abstract thought-- what system is this in? Existence (or Creation) is a concept of a Constant. That Constant is God. Moses found that God's name (back then a name was an attribute) is I AM. Note that this is no concept thought up by a very very old story teller. God himself addressed His Being as I AM. Meaning his sole attribute is the fact that he exists, yet is the very creator of the concept of existence. The wisest thing for a person to do as a non-believer is to do whatever appears to please him and if he dies in the process-- so what then?-- his life was of no meaning anyway. He has disturbed the great nothingness. The meaning to life is to live for ever. This is a promise to those who will put their faith in their Creator. A Creator who has done everything so that we might gain eternal life. Take this into thought-- If there is no God: A man will find wisdom if there was some act that he could do to cause him to live longer. His struggle for more LIFE is not meaningless. About the purpose God has for his children-- Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, the things God has in store for the one that loves Him. If in one "God-week" the universe was made... what new, inconcievable thing will God do when the Eighth day's morning brings our King into power? I tell you, we are in the evening of the Sabbath. God is resting for our sake. This life will be terribly insignificant in comparison to what will come.

The problem I see with your position: you talk about two different concepts of God. The God that is "I AM" is a personification of existence.
Whether this personification is necessary or not, you are right in one point: without a concept of existence, all is meaningless.

But all else: the meaning of life, eternal life, "God-week" ... is something beyond existence. It is additional information that has to come from somewhere. In your case, it comes from faith.

If someones faith is different, he might agree with you on the concept of existence - the rest is open for debate.

 

[Michali]

You are completely correct. Out of faith I speak of the God-week. I mentioned it in response to someone saying that the purpose of life in Christianity is meaningless. The creation of the world was a barrage of new concepts. We can never concieve of our divine purpose until it has been told to us. I'm sure it will bring an all new meaning to adventure. Eternal life is no bore. Especially when it is always getting better.

 

[foolsparade]

Michali, with your "faith" you must also concede that there is no divine purpose of humanity. How would you know if eternal life is "no bore"? My money is on you having no concept of what eternal life really is or means. You also say "getting better" which would contradict heaven would'nt it? How can heaven get better?

"Being religious to one's advantage.— There are sober and efficient men on whom religion is embroidered like the hem of a higher humanity. These men do well to remain religious: it beautifies them.— All men who have no expertise with any weapon (mouth and pen counting as weapons) become servile: for such men, religion is very useful, for here servility takes on the appearance of a Christian virtue and is surprisingly beautified.— People who think their daily lives too empty and monotonous easily become religious: this is understandable and forgivable; however, they have no right to demand religiosity from those whose daily life does not pass in emptiness and monotony."
Human all to Human, Nietzsche

"Only the most acute and active animals are capable of boredom.-- A theme for a great poet would be God's boredom on the seventh day of creation." The Wanderer and His Shadow, Nietzsche

 

[Michali]

You are correct in saying I haven't the slightest grasp on what the next age will hold for me. As does no man. To even think that you will live forever causes pain to the brain. But tell me, why by my faith am I to inquire that there is no divine purpose of humanity? The only thing I know of my future life is that it will be full of bliss. Where there is boredom, there is no beauty, no happiness, no peace for that matter. As a christian, I have tried to keep an open mind to all things. Such idealists are rare. As a philosopher, do not despise another seeker. Do not remind me of the boundaries that other children of God are not willing to cross to find answers. I say this because you are using common faith against my faith. You, as do I, have no Biblical evidence on humanity's veiled purpose. Remember, the common christian belief is not always the truth.

Heaven- define. Currently heaven and earth are destined for destruction. A new heaven and earth are to be made. An example of deteriation due to man's fall. It will be babtised with fire and reborn as I was. I am constantly in the act of growing spiritually. So they will be constantly getting better. A simple fact in the faith. Heaven is not our future abode. It is the Kingdom of Heaven descended upon the new earth that we will dwell in.

The best can get better: The past is obsolete. The present is the best. The future is better. --A formula for the growth of things.

Sorry if this post sounds mean, foolsparade. Its not meant to be fiery. Might I say that I am impressed with your reasonings on your post, and I'd like to talk about them. Please just consider these writings valid for consideration.

 

[KieNieHei]

Dear friend I think that you are mistaken in your concepts a bit. First I find that you are a bit of a Utilitarian as if you commit actions for the happiness in return instead of morality having an intrinsic value initself as it should be. I do not think that we as Christians should be doing things to go to eternal hapiness we need the right mind set to be heavenly and that mind set doesn't include doing stuff for return, the return God gives you is a perk not a means. I also find that your idea that all life is so full of meaning because of God is a bit wrong as well. First meaning is subjective no matter how you look at God has shown me meaning but I don't have to accept his meaning and that is his gift he has given us. I also think that in nihilism is beauty in God's forsakeness and his long lack of contact with us do we find ultimate meaning. God is the ultimate literary paradox from whence the Christian authors such as Graham Greene found there inspiration. And I think that the existentialist is the closest thing to a Christian there is he acts out of full responsiblity he knows himself and acts from his heart not for his parents or state that is what Sartre talks of in his Being and Nothingness about creating yourself and your meaning. I recomend you read the Book of Ecclesiastes by the Teacher the original existentialist. The author talks in a very Sartrean manor about absurdity in human progression and the meaninglessness of life. For example,
Ecclesiastes 1

Everything Is Meaningless

1 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:

2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!"
says the Teacher.
"Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless."
3 What does man gain from all his labor
at which he toils under the sun? 4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever
Also the angst of throwness in Heidegerean and Sartrean thought,

"2 And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive. 3 But better than both
is he who has not yet been,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun."
Also how misery does not go away with bad faith,

"15 Naked a man comes from his mother's womb,
and as he comes, so he departs.
He takes nothing from his labor
that he can carry in his hand.
16 This too is a grievous evil:
As a man comes, so he departs,
and what does he gain,
since he toils for the wind? 17 All his days he eats in darkness,
with great frustration, affliction and anger."
Much love and I hope you see my point.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Burnt Toast, you are right, Christianity and Existentialism are two completely different views on life. Christianity has Christ, second being of the Godhead, Son to the Father, and they are ONE. Christ died that we might live, He reconciled us to God, He will lead us back to our inheritance. We have strayed far from God, He loves us and wants us back again, Jesus showed and told us what to do, how to become. " Love God with all your hearts, and love each other as you love yourselves." Love is the key to all our dreams and achievements, Love will overcome evil and wrongdoings, and it is only possible with the help and Guidance of God, He is Love, and it is His Love which helps us to conquer. Unless we really try, we will never know the truth of this, and Existentialism is the opposite: seek your own advantage and go your own way, look for the results which are most pleasurable, even if they hurt others, and are of short duration. I say this humbly and lovingly, Burnt Toast, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.