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Christianity almost unproves itself

Kol

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When you become a Christian, you're supposed to be filled with the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and become a new person, right? You no longer walk in the ways of the flesh, but in the nature of God's son. And this nature is supposed to be able to save us from our current, corrupted nature.

So why is it that most Christians are backsliders, hypocrites, and just plain weak in their faith? It makes it seem like Christ's spirit can't really do what he claims it can. It makes it seem like he's just not strong enough.

How do people still believe in Christ when there is still so much trouble in the world?
 

ModestGirlsRock

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of course, we're backsliders. To be a christian doesn't mean to be perfect. Everyone is at different points in their faith walk, who is it of anyone to judge another about where they are at? I guess most people today look weak compared to the likes of Paul, Peter, Stephen, Barnabas, etc. It wasn't easy to be a christian back then and it isn't any easier now. In some countries, christians are still physically killed. In others, things like T.V., Ipods, cell phones kill the christian spiritually. You can't have a relationship with God if you can't even manage to have relationship with your Bible. Even in 3rd world countries, the Bible is somehow distributed to those hungry for Truth. I think many modern christians now don't have that relationship with the God's Word which of course means their faith isn't growing, and the one of the most important things to do as a christian is to continue on growing no matter how slow one is going. Pray Daily, Read your bible daily, die to yourself daily, take up the cross...Pretty simple, right? God gives people to the free will to choose what to do with their time. Of course, we mess up. Hope is what keeps me believing no matter how lost I feel.
 
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Kol

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But isn't his spirit supposed to give us the ability to change? Or am I misunderstanding, and it's something we had in us all along? If He's meant to supply the ability to achieve the impossible, and we fail, isn't that on him?

What I don't get is how we can say "change is up to God", then blame ourselves for being backsliders. If the duty is up to him, and we fail, isn't the blame on him?
 
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buzzini

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Once a person become Christian, Holy Spirit doesn't just took over the body and forcefully live in him. God respect people too much to do that. If the person has no will to continue to be in God, then God does not force the person and turn him into robot. A person's will is the only contact to Holy Spirit. He is as much christian as he has will.

That's why Christian still has the option to backslide, to sin, to do whatever he wants. Like Christ said, He's the gate that followers has to enter. But it is still a journey from there, the gate is just the beginning.
 
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smacarena

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I'm on the downward slide, too. And I think it's a bunch of things that vie for our faith. Living in a nation that values politics/religion more than the real thing, it's hard. It's even more difficult when I have a hard time admitting to myself that I'm a major component in the problem.
 
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Breakaway_republic

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I know your proverbial "pain".

But, God NEVER promises an easy life [instant change and sanctificaion... or to instantly "be holy"]. To believe that once you accept Jesus, that you will "prosper" spiritually, never have ANY problems is... well... stupid. This is the kind of thing that most televangelists preach [IE: the all honey and no bees "Prosperity 'Gospel' " [a blasphemous slur]] and we all know why they do that [they're not in it for God, but the money of the innocent and gullible].

PLEASE don't misunderstand, God DOES promise to stay with you if you stick with him. EVERYONE who accepts Christ still goes through tough times both physically and spiritually.

The way to truly "change" is to keep reading your bible, and stay connected with God. Yes, you will stumble and possibly "fall". But all you have to do is be honest and open with God. Ask God for stregnth and guidance daily, and you will in time "Change".
 
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Kol

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"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed (the Holy Spirit?) remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
So what about this? If we are born of God, born of His spirit, we won't be able to stomach our continual sin.

I suggest that anyone who still has an appetite for sin hasn't been born of God's spirit. That's the way it all seems to me.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Luther073082

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The world is a very attractive force. You live in it every day, it and Satan taunts you with their immediate gratifications of sin.

A person can receive the Holy Spirit by allowing the Holy Spirit in. BUT its important to note that if they can allow the Holy Spirit in, they can also kick him out. When a person gets too caught up in the world, they effectivly kick the Holy Spirit out. This is one of many reasons why even though Christ's forgiveness is unlimited, we can not just feel a full right to live how we choose and expect that forgiveness.

Living how you want and not how God wants kills your faith. The more about you it becomes, then the less about God it becomes. And if its not about God at all then your faith is hollow, its not real. Its something you say, but not something at your core that you believe in.

Often people ask and worry if they believe enough in Christ to be saved. That very question is often an indicator that the answer is yes they are on the path to salvation. A person of the world never considers or worries about if he belives enough to be saved. They just expect that God to take them to heaven when they die, because they (the person) do not view themselves as bad people and ignore their sins.

Now this does not mean we can't be confident in our own salvation. Christ gives us that confidence. But its a confidence that comes from truely knowing and understanding Christ's love and the cost of your sins. The false confidence of those who call themselves Christians, but are caught up in the world is mostly based not on the love of Christ, but instead their own self-assurance that they really arn't that bad of people.
 
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Völuspá

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Glad to see a Christian pointing this out. I don't believe being a Christian changes people at all. (For example, atheists are highly underrepresented in prison systems. It's almost entirely self-professed Christians.) I often see a bunch of people caught up in the politics of morality, while paying no mind to being a good person. I get some of the most rude people trying to convert me, and I cannot believe any God has anything to do with their lives. They're just under the delusion that they're better people because of the title they wear.

Hope it doesn't sound like I'm just attacking. I think all religions should be open to critique and be willing to reform based on valid criticisms. I know I'm not a great person either, but it's important to be honest about it and not let your religion lead you to believe you're good if you're not.
 
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Luther073082

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Völuspá;52307990 said:
Glad to see a Christian pointing this out. I don't believe being a Christian changes people at all. (For example, atheists are highly underrepresented in prison systems. It's almost entirely self-professed Christians.) I often see a bunch of people caught up in the politics of morality, while paying no mind to being a good person. I get some of the most rude people trying to convert me, and I cannot believe any God has anything to do with their lives. They're just under the delusion that they're better people because of the title they wear.

Hope it doesn't sound like I'm just attacking. I think all religions should be open to critique and be willing to reform based on valid criticisms. I know I'm not a great person either, but it's important to be honest about it and not let your religion lead you to believe you're good if you're not.

Being the dominate religion in a free nation, those who arn't religious but belive in some form of God call themselves Christians but arn't. If you don't know what you are, or don't really care, the default answer for someone asking you what your religious faith is, would be "Christian" in the US. Most of these people genuanily believe there is a God. But that does not mean that they really accept any nominal form of Christianity. Realistically they are mostly just diests. In the same way many people of Jewish decent will respond that their faith is "Jewish" although they have not made the jewish faith a major part of their life and really do not follow its tenents.

While on the other hand, an atheist, and many agnostics know exactly what they are.

Its nothing really new. Back between the 16th and 19th centuries European aristocrats and kings all called themselves Christians. However the vast majority of them openly kept at least one mistress. However most of them would start and go to wars to "defend" the faith. And they certainly where not opposed to doing some killing on its behalf. But Christianity was useful for maintaining power.

It is important to note the difference both now and in the past. But while Christians note the difference (and most do), I belive atheists need to step up and also know the difference. Most of atheist complaints about "Christian hypocracy" center around those who call themselves Christians but don't actually make the faith an important part of their life.

Calling some of these people Christians is no different from calling that teenager a pagan, just cause they show up to a pagan meeting or two in order to tick off their parents.
 
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Isambard

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Being the dominate religion in a free nation, those who arn't religious but belive in some form of God call themselves Christians but arn't. If you don't know what you are, or don't really care, the default answer for someone asking you what your religious faith is, would be "Christian" in the US. Most of these people genuanily believe there is a God. But that does not mean that they really accept any nominal form of Christianity.

Except they also claim to believe in Jesus as God, making them christians.

Realistically they are mostly just diests. In the same way many people of Jewish decent will respond that their faith is "Jewish" although they have not made the jewish faith a major part of their life and really do not follow its tenents.

This is because being Jewish is also a matter of ethnicity. If you have a Jewish mother you are a Jew regardless of your faith.

Its nothing really new. Back between the 16th and 19th centuries European aristocrats and kings all called themselves Christians. However the vast majority of them openly kept at least one mistress. However most of them would start and go to wars to "defend" the faith. And they certainly where not opposed to doing some killing on its behalf. But Christianity was useful for maintaining power.

So what? Christian theology holds that everyone sins, so these people were still christians regardless of their actions.

It is important to note the difference both now and in the past. But while Christians note the difference (and most do), I belive atheists need to step up and also know the difference. Most of atheist complaints about "Christian hypocracy" center around those who call themselves Christians but don't actually make the faith an important part of their life.

Why should we sort out your doctrinal messes? There are thousands of christian denominations, all claiming to the the ONE TRUTH. To illustrate my point, would you consider Martin Luther a true christian? Even with his extremely hateful view of jews and minorities (comparable to those of Hitler)?
 
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Luther073082

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Except they also claim to believe in Jesus as God, making them christians.

Why do their claims matter? Actions speak louder then words.

This is because being Jewish is also a matter of ethnicity. If you have a Jewish mother you are a Jew regardless of your faith.[./quote]

You will find most of these same people will also list their faith as Jewish.

So what? Christian theology holds that everyone sins, so these people were still christians regardless of their actions.

The Bible also states that we will know people by their fruits. (by their actions) James states that if you claim to have faith, but arn't willing to help someone when they need it, then your faith is dead. (AKA you arn't a real Christian.) Jesus said that not everyone who called him "Lord" would enter the kingdom of heaven.

Christian theology also holds that your actions are meaningful.

Why should we sort out your doctrinal messes? There are thousands of christian denominations, all claiming to the the ONE TRUTH. To illustrate my point, would you consider Martin Luther a true christian? Even with his extremely hateful view of jews and minorities (comparable to those of Hitler)?

There is no doctrinal mess in terms of actions.

And yes it is true that Luther was not a huge fan of the Jews. But where you lie, (or are ignorant) is the extent of it. In what Luther thinks how the Jews should be treated, he never mentions "kill them all". Luther never believed in genocide. He did advocate stripping them of their rights at the end of his life. Although the idea of universal liberty in that time was completly unheard of, so if you view him in the scope of his time one can understand his mindset.

He did however not like them a single bit, that is very apparent. That is a sin he carried. He failed to love them.

*Edit* From On the Jews and their lies by Martin Luther
Part XI, Paragraph 17
And you, my dear gentlemen and friends who are pastors and preachers, I wish to remind very faithfully of your official duty, so that you too may warn your parishioners concerning their eternal harm, as you know how to do, namely, that they be on their guard against the Jews and avoid them so far as possible. They should not curse them or harm their persons, however. For the Jews have cursed and harmed themselves more than enough by cursing the Man Jesus of Nazareth, Mary's son, which they unfortunately have been doing for over fourteen hundred years. Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not. Let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew

Now Martin Luther's suggestions on dealing with Jews:

That the government (not individual citizens) should:

1. Burn their synagogues and schools so as to prevent their spreading of the Jewish faith.
2. Destroy their homes. (As he considers them a people in exile)
3. Take away their religious materials and prayer books
4. Forbid the rabbi's from preaching
5. Do not give them safe conduct on the roads. (As he belives they use it to spread their faith.)
6. Usuary should be prohibited to them. (To prevent them from becomming too wealthy and spreading their faith)
7. Regulate them to only low level work.

(All of this taken from On the Jews and their lies by Martin Luther)

It should be noted that Luther feared their faith but not their race as he also said

"Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble."

So no Luther was not a fan of religous liberty. And he was not terribly loving towards non-Christians. But genocide, like what Hitler was into. . . no that wasn't him.

If we now take a broader step and look upon his whole fruits. He devoted his life to the church and to freeing people from the dictatorial power of the Roman Church at the time. He prayed consistantly, taught and spread the word of God. His faith was at the very center of his life. It in many respects was his life.

The difference in what I am speaking of is more apparent. I like many of us carry sins and weaknesses on me. Ones that I have committed many times before and probably will again in the future. I'm no better then Luther.

However at the same time, one can clearly tell that my faith is an important part of my life. The question that needs to be asked is if the people who often committed these acts of genocide made the faith an important part of their lives? Or was most of it done to keep up appearences?

These days one does not have to "keep up appearences". A person can claim to be a Christian, maybe show up to Church on Christmas and Easter. But do they really believe in it? Is it really important to them? Or is it just a side hobby?
 
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Isambard

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Why do their claims matter? Actions speak louder then words.

Not according to Luke.

Luke 18:10-14:"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God."
Luke 23:40-43: "But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." "

You will find most of these same people will also list their faith as Jewish.

Evidence?

The Bible also states that we will know people by their fruits. (by their actions) James states that if you claim to have faith, but arn't willing to help someone when they need it, then your faith is dead. (AKA you arn't a real Christian.) Jesus said that not everyone who called him "Lord" would enter the kingdom of heaven.

See what I quoted above.

Christian theology also holds that your actions are meaningful.
There is no doctrinal mess in terms of actions.

Er, yes there is. You're assuming your position is correct thus labeling Catholics and Orthodox as non-Christians. This is of course ignoring all the other minor denoms and off-shoots that claim divine revelation about their biblical alterations (ie. Mormonism, Islam etc.).

And yes it is true that Luther was not a huge fan of the Jews. But where you lie, (or are ignorant) is the extent of it. In what Luther thinks how the Jews should be treated, he never mentions "kill them all". Luther never believed in genocide. He did advocate stripping them of their rights at the end of his life.

Ooo, you are being too kind to Luther. Here's what he actually said;

  1. "First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..."
  2. "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ..."
  3. "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. ..."
  4. "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ..."
  5. "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ..."
  6. "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them. ... Such money should now be used in ... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [a certain amount]..."
  7. "Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."
  8. "If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs." Luther, On the Jews, 47:268-288, 292.
And let us not forget this little gem, "If I had power over them I would assemble their most prominent men and demand that they prove that we Christians do not worship the one God, under the penalty of having their tongues torn out through the backs of their necks" (ib. xxxii. 257).

Tell me again how I'm lying^_^.

Although the idea of universal liberty in that time was completly unheard of, so if you view him in the scope of his time one can understand his mindset.

He did however not like them a single bit, that is very apparent. That is a sin he carried. He failed to love them.

Except Luther was criticized by his contemporaries for his hateful atitude toward jews. So even then, his hateful nature was extreme.

It should be noted that Luther feared their faith but not their race as he also said

"Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble."

So no Luther was not a fan of religous liberty. And he was not terribly loving towards non-Christians. But genocide, like what Hitler was into. . . no that wasn't him.

See my last quote.

If we now take a broader step and look upon his whole fruits. He devoted his life to the church and to freeing people from the dictatorial power of the Roman Church at the time. He prayed consistantly, taught and spread the word of God. His faith was at the very center of his life. It in many respects was his life.

The difference in what I am speaking of is more apparent. I like many of us carry sins and weaknesses on me. Ones that I have committed many times before and probably will again in the future. I'm no better then Luther.

However at the same time, one can clearly tell that my faith is an important part of my life. The question that needs to be asked is if the people who often committed these acts of genocide made the faith an important part of their lives? Or was most of it done to keep up appearences?

Just like the alledged 'pretend-christians' from earlier centuries you critisized. So either Luther was a "True Christian", along with with everyone else, or none of them were.

These days one does not have to "keep up appearences". A person can claim to be a Christian, maybe show up to Church on Christmas and Easter. But do they really believe in it? Is it really important to them? Or is it just a side hobby?

The answer to this is subjective. Hence why your critique of prison studies and religion falls.
 
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"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed (the Holy Spirit?) remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
So what about this? If we are born of God, born of His spirit, we won't be able to stomach our continual sin.

I suggest that anyone who still has an appetite for sin hasn't been born of God's spirit. That's the way it all seems to me.

Paul talks about renewing the Spirit daily. It is possible for one to be a fervent believer of the Truth, keeps the truth and observes the truth, but doesn't do the truth; and there is a difference. When David sinned, he was not born of God because he did not renew the Spirit. When he didn't renew the Spirit daily, sin took an occasion against him and he fell into sin. But he still did keep and observe God's laws.

When you read Acts, you come across a group of people who have been baptised with water for repentance but did not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Usually when you read of someone being filled with the Holy Spirit, a miracle occurs with it. To have the Spirit with you is to have that counsellor to help you with your walk with God. As you continue your walk with God, Paul says that the sinful becomes utterly sinful and it becomes an abomination. We soon see things as God sees them. But for someone who continues to sin, lives in their sin with no attempt to change, yet claim the blood of Messiah, is a liar and the truth is not in him and makes a mockery of the faith. As the scriptures say, 'by their fruits ye shall know them'.
 
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