Christian who struggles with Hell

[TrueMyth]

Hey all!

I've spent some time now in the Internet Infidels forum, and they keep referencing CF.com, so I thought I would hop on over and see what the hubbub is about.

Here is my problem: I am a moderate to conservative Protestant American Christian who wants to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength." However, I have a difficulty loving the Lord with all of the above (especially my mind) when I have issues with Hell. Here are my issues:

1. Why eternal punishment for a temporal crime? I understand that God is Holiness, which cannot be in the presence of sin. I get it. But why shut the door forever after death? Why not allow a soul to repent after death?

2. Does Hell have to be conscious torment? Isn't privation from God good enough to satisfy justice and God's goodness? Why must the damned not only be lost, but know and hate the fact that they are?

3. (side issue, but relevant) Will any sin get you into Hell? I have heard people talk a lot about how "sin is sin" in God's eyes. Can someone please show me this verse in the Bible, or is this one of those Rapture things, where it's vaguely alluded to but never explicitly stated? In any case, it seems a bit much for a man to steal $10, get hit by a car, and be in the same eternal boat as a lifetime rapist.

Notes on me: I graduated from a Christian college with a degree in philosophy, and I have been a Christian since I was 7 (17 wonderful years!). I am a rigorous intellectual thinker, so appeals to mystery or "you just have to have faith" or "God's ways are not our ways" will fall on deaf ears. Also: this is not a crisis of faith, really. It's a crisis of intellect. I trust God, I believe in him and everything's fine between us. I just want to understand. Final note: please don't question my motives or speculate on the etiology of the struggle. That does not answer my question, and it is unproductive. Just b/c I have spent time with philosophy and atheists does not mean I have been infected by "the world." Thank you all

 

[metherion]

well, for 2 I really don't know. Sorry. Ditto for 3.

But for 1 I got an answer.

When we sin and don't repent, we are telling God that we don't want to be with Him. Since our time on Earth is the time that we get to act either loving towards Him or antagonistic towards Him, our temporal acts determine how we feel towards God. If we end up not wishing to be with Him, then we get to spend all eternity with what we thought we wanted, eternal separation from God.

As to what goes on after someone is cast into Hell, God only knows. Seriously, only He knows. I personally believe that someone can only go into Hell if they choose to, which means they wouldn't want out. But that's me.


Also, Welcome to CF! Hope you enjoy it here!
Metherion

 

[TrueMyth]

well, for 2 I really don't know. Sorry. Ditto for 3.

But for 1 I got an answer.

When we sin and don't repent, we are telling God that we don't want to be with Him. Since our time on Earth is the time that we get to act either loving towards Him or antagonistic towards Him, our temporal acts determine how we feel towards God. If we end up not wishing to be with Him, then we get to spend all eternity with what we thought we wanted, eternal separation from God.

As to what goes on after someone is cast into Hell, God only knows. Seriously, only He knows. I personally believe that someone can only go into Hell if they choose to, which means they wouldn't want out. But that's me.


Also, Welcome to CF! Hope you enjoy it here!
Metherion

I know what you mean regarding Hell and personal choice. I have always found C. S. Lewis' portrayal the most compelling-- from The Problem of Pain: "I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside... They enjoy forever the horrible freedom they have demanded, and are therefore self-enslaved."

A problem still remains, however, and a thought experiment might help sort it out:

Suppose a man is born, and then later on he determines that he does not believe there is a God. He lives his life like this, and eventually he comes to dislike even the very idea of a God-- the Cosmic Meddler, say, or he sees certain passages in the OT and claims that God is a sadist. As a result, he concludes: "Even if there is a God, I don't want to be with him." Eventually, he dies. He, of course, goes to Hell. While in Hell, he is consciously in torment, realizing that there is a God and He is good and holy, and he lost his chance. Presumably, he got what he wanted. However, he certainly doesn't want it now. Now he realizes his error and wants to be with God, especially now that he knows the truth beyond a shadow of a doubt. Why is it too late?

Some possible responses, and my reactions:
1) Well, he knew the consequences, and still chose them.
--Not really. He knew that if there was a God, then those would be the consequences, but he didn't really know that there was a God. In any case, God is not patently obvious in the way it is obvious I am sitting in a chair. Now that God is obvious, why can he not apologize and come home? Maybe he needs to "burn off his sins first" a la Purgatory, but why should he have to do so for all eternity? For example: suppose we tell a man that he cannot go into a certain room b/c there is a man-eating lion in there, and that man scoffs and says, "I don't think there is. I'm going to go in anyway." When he goes in and sees the lion, and repents of his false belief and asks to be let out, wouldn't we do it? Why doesn't God? If that's too easy, then so is letting us off the hook of sin by someone else dying for our sins. At all accounts, there is still this question: Why does God set up so drastic a punishment as the consequence? Why not "You'll be kept out until you want back in"?
2) Well, he can't ever want back in. His will is rebellious. Thus, in some metaphorical sense, God keeps leaving the door open, and he keeps shutting and locking it.
-- This resonates with me the most, but it still grates on me. Is it so hard to believe that in this lifetime, there are atheists who are so out of rational conviction? It seems the height of arrogance (not to mention the "No True Scotsman Fallacy") to state that all atheists are that way b/c they don't like God; they are emotionally or volitionally rebelling against him, and they know in their heart of hearts that there is a God. I freely believe that there are rational atheists, who see the world and honestly don't see God. Like I said, God is not obvious-- why then is it so heinous not to believe in Him?

Again, I'm just trying to understand.

 

[127Rockledge]

TrueMyth - your thought exercise is very much appreciated and certainly thought provoking.

 

[billwald]

Hell is the place that God made for people who don't want to be in Heaven. No one will be forced into Hell. It is all volunteers.

 

[Chajara]

To me, it seems like eternal torment would be far more fitting for Satan than it would be for humans. I've done a lot of thinking about it and really, eternal punishment /does/ seem harsh for a God that claims to love each and every one of his creatures. I'd think he'd leave the door open for them should they ever turn back.

 

[Harlan Norris]

Hey all!

I've spent some time now in the Internet Infidels forum, and they keep referencing CF.com, so I thought I would hop on over and see what the hubbub is about.

Here is my problem: I am a moderate to conservative Protestant American Christian who wants to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength." However, I have a difficulty loving the Lord with all of the above (especially my mind) when I have issues with Hell. Here are my issues:

1. Why eternal punishment for a temporal crime? I understand that God is Holiness, which cannot be in the presence of sin. I get it. But why shut the door forever after death? Why not allow a soul to repent after death?

2. Does Hell have to be conscious torment? Isn't privation from God good enough to satisfy justice and God's goodness? Why must the damned not only be lost, but know and hate the fact that they are?

3. (side issue, but relevant) Will any sin get you into Hell? I have heard people talk a lot about how "sin is sin" in God's eyes. Can someone please show me this verse in the Bible, or is this one of those Rapture things, where it's vaguely alluded to but never explicitly stated? In any case, it seems a bit much for a man to steal $10, get hit by a car, and be in the same eternal boat as a lifetime rapist.

Notes on me: I graduated from a Christian college with a degree in philosophy, and I have been a Christian since I was 7 (17 wonderful years!). I am a rigorous intellectual thinker, so appeals to mystery or "you just have to have faith" or "God's ways are not our ways" will fall on deaf ears. Also: this is not a crisis of faith, really. It's a crisis of intellect. I trust God, I believe in him and everything's fine between us. I just want to understand. Final note: please don't question my motives or speculate on the etiology of the struggle. That does not answer my question, and it is unproductive. Just b/c I have spent time with philosophy and atheists does not mean I have been infected by "the world." Thank you all

You know,all we have to go on with respect to this issue is the Bible.I mean that's it.So, we either believe it or we don't. Where does the conflict come from? Clearly, no one can expect to live a perfect life.That's the whole point of salvation. The need for salvation is why we embrace Jesus Christ. I for one, just take it on faith, the bible has told the truth. While it may seem like the majority of humanity will fall short of grace,I'm still forced to think about my own conversion.It was totally unexpected and frankly undreamed of. I'd set my mind against it for the bulk of my life.I can't count the times people had witnessed to me,only to receive a harsh rebuke.The issue just wouldn't go away. So, at a time in my life when I was not hearing any witness,was not seeking any,was not going through any personal trevail,I was literally possessed by thoughts of God.This led to my conversion. I'm well aware that I could have just ignored it and continued with my life business as usual.But that's not what I did.It seems likely to me that virtually everyone experiences this,and their reaction to it amounts to a choice.I've witnessed to several of my friends who are definately thinking about the existance of God.However, even though in some cases they see their life as completely unrewarding,they will not seriously consider accepting the salvation offered.God waited over 50 years for my decision.If I had refused after all that time,I can imagine the offer being removed.

 

[PETE_]

Choosing God after death and seeing His Glory would be coersion and thus deny man free will.

 

[TrueMyth]

You know,all we have to go on with respect to this issue is the Bible.I mean that's it.So, we either believe it or we don't. Where does the conflict come from? Clearly, no one can expect to live a perfect life.That's the whole point of salvation. The need for salvation is why we embrace Jesus Christ. I for one, just take it on faith, the bible has told the truth. While it may seem like the majority of humanity will fall short of grace,I'm still forced to think about my own conversion.It was totally unexpected and frankly undreamed of. I'd set my mind against it for the bulk of my life.I can't count the times people had witnessed to me,only to receive a harsh rebuke.The issue just wouldn't go away. So, at a time in my life when I was not hearing any witness,was not seeking any,was not going through any personal trevail,I was literally possessed by thoughts of God.This led to my conversion. I'm well aware that I could have just ignored it and continued with my life business as usual.But that's not what I did.It seems likely to me that virtually everyone experiences this,and their reaction to it amounts to a choice.I've witnessed to several of my friends who are definately thinking about the existance of God.However, even though in some cases they see their life as completely unrewarding,they will not seriously consider accepting the salvation offered.God waited over 50 years for my decision.If I had refused after all that time,I can imagine the offer being removed.

I disagree that the Bible is all we have to go off of. I believe that God gave us rational minds, and that he gave us an innate sense of goodness, both of which we can use to interpret Scripture. Simply saying, "It's in the Bible. That's it." gets us nowhere, since the Bible is monstrously explicit on only a handful of issues. To be sure, it is very explicit that Hell, whatever that might mean, is a real place, and that it is a bad thing to be avoided at all costs. Beyond this, we are free to speculate and infer from what we already know of God's revelation and His goodness.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you had denied his gift of salvation. 50 years, and you never said "yes." Two questions: why did God have you die before you did say yes; and why does God then remove the offer? I agree there needs to be consequences and punishment. But eternal, unending, conscious torture? I have trouble seeing it.

 

[TrueMyth]

Choosing God after death and seeing His Glory would be coersion and thus deny man free will.

This is something I've considered, but rejected. For example: Did Satan act within free will when he rejected God? Did the 1/3 of angels when they did the same? The choice of Hell seems to me to be simply this: self over God, consequences be d--d. Satan saw God in all His glory, and he either 1) was coerced into sin, or 2) freely chose it. If (1), why does God punish him? I can't see how free will is applicable to men, but not angels. If (2), then why can't humans see God after death in His glory, and still freely choose?

 

[PETE_]

I believe that God gave us rational minds

That cannot fully understand God or His ways

and that he gave us an innate sense of goodness

We are innately evil

 

[lilymarie]

Choosing God after death and seeing His Glory would be coersion and thus deny man free will.

Very good point!

I see God everywhere. I see the creator everywhere.

I think people deny God because they don't want to repent of sin.

But, I do understand the points in some of these other posts.

Let's take parenting as an example. Are we to raise our children in camp run-amok -- anything goes is fine with you as a parent?

Next, sometimes we have to put our children under grounding and/or take away privileges for their misconduct and refusual to submit to the authority of their parents.

Where I see your point in some of these posts is... eventually the child who misbehaved is not grounded anymore and the privileges are restored.

Would God do that no matter what? I don't know.

However, the only unforgiveable sin is speaking blasphemy against The Holy Spirit.

All other sins are forgiveable, washed cleaned by the blood of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross and a full confession in public that Jesus Christ is the son of God.

That's the beginning. Next step is repentance so that we can baptized with the Holy Spirit.

If we haven't repented of sin, why would something Holy want to indwell within us?

Christianity is a lot deeper than people realize. It's a lifestyle choice of dying to the fleshly wants and selfish desires every day, which gets easier over time. However, if you do mess up, Jesus is quick to forgive again.

And I say Christianity is a lot deeper than people realize because "lest a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God".

However, there is a type of generic Christianity, Americanized Christianity, secular Christianity, worldly Christianity... are all these people following Christ and Christianity, not really. Are all these people practicing that type of superficial Christianity saved -- I don't know?

However, a lot of people see Jesus like they do Santa Clause or Frosty the Snowman.

But are those people on their way to Hell? I don't know? But they could also change into following "the way" as they mature in Christ.

As the Bible doesn't say there is a purgatory, don't pay indulgences to the RCC to get them into heaven, unless this is what you truly believe. I don't. Sorry.

 

[PETE_]

This is something I've considered, but rejected. For example: Did Satan act within free will when he rejected God? Did the 1/3 of angels when they did the same? The choice of Hell seems to me to be simply this: self over God, consequences be d--d. Satan saw God in all His glory, and he either 1) was coerced into sin, or 2) freely chose it. If (1), why does God punish him? I can't see how free will is applicable to men, but not angels. If (2), then why can't humans see God after death in His glory, and still freely choose?

Angels, including Satan do not have free will. They are only allowed what God permits them.

 

[TrueMyth]

Very good point!

I see God everywhere. I see the creator everywhere.

I think people deny God because they don't want to repent of sin.

This can't be the only reason. I just can't believe that all atheists are rebels whose only cause is themselves. The evidence and reason cry against it.

If we haven't repented of sin, why would something Holy want to indwell within us?

Christianity is a lot deeper than people realize. It's a lifestyle choice of dying to the fleshly wants and selfish desires every day, which gets easier over time. However, if you do mess up, Jesus is quick to forgive again.

And I say Christianity is a lot deeper than people realize because "lest a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God".

I agree with you that sin cannot coexist with Holiness. Thus, a person will be in hell unless he/she repents. Why can't they repent while in hell?

 

[metherion]

I would like to apologize for the double post. Mods, feel free to delete it. My browser fritzed out, and I thought I hadn't submitted the post before I changed something.

Metherion

 

[metherion]

Hmmm. Very thought provoking.

I will give you the answer to the thought puzzle you provided based on what I believe will happen.

I believe when this man dies, after 50 years of not believing in God, and believing God to be a sadist, God (or one of the Angels, or Saint Peter, or SOMEONE) will sit the man down over a cup of coffee, or whatever passes for that in the spiritual world. He/She/It will say to this man, "I/God has been misrepresented to you. This is how God truly is." The man will then have his misconceptions explained to him, and he will know how God really operates. At that point he will be given a decision: accept how the universe really is, and go to purgatory in the path of getting to Heaven, or to deny it and go to Hell. It will be his choice whether or not to go be with God or not.

I personally believe that people who either have God misrepresented or never got the chance to know about Him and believe in Him will get the Cosmic Talking To, and get a chance to decide. I believe that to go to Hell, someone needs to know how the universe really runs and still not be repentant to go to Hell.

But this is just my opinion, I don't know if its how God really works. I do hope it is.

I also don't really believe that Hell is brimstone and fire, or ice, or whatever. I think the real thing in Hell is being cut off from God, and knowing it.

Metherion

 

[lilymarie]

This can't be the only reason. I just can't believe that all atheists are rebels whose only cause is themselves. The evidence and reason cry against it.



I agree with you that sin cannot coexist with Holiness. Thus, a person will be in hell unless he/she repents. Why can't they repent while in hell?

They've chosen the world's way instead of God's way. They want to keep their sin. I mean weren't you in that spot once? I know I was. Trying to have the best of both worlds, my cake and eat it too. It never worked for me until I fully submitted everything to The Lord and his will, not mine. I have been in online debates with atheists, and they worship the mind and learning -- but all they are learning about is the world that's here one minute, but will change or could change the next day. Example -- Pluto is no longer a planet. Who knows what will change tomorrow? Or the next day? Has anyone been wiser than God? Not a single man nor woman I can think of.

However, Christ will be the judge, none of us can know. However, paying indulgences to the Catholic church? Well, I completely disagree with that nonsense.

As far as Satan having free will... I believe he chose free will in the Garden.

I found this answer on Yahoo -- best voted post by Yahoo users of Satan and the begator of free will --

Question was: Did Satan Create Free Will?

Best Answer - Chosen By Voters


Yep - by all accounts, he was the first slave revolutionary. I mean, how'd'ya make war in Heaven, if not be inventing the idea of individual free will? The whole Adam and Eve thing is more dubious ground, but no-one ever recognises the achievement that he's credited with - turning angels - who, it's reported, had no free will at all - into rebels. If we want to bring Adam and eve in, again, the idea is that they had free will all along, but they had no knowledge of good or evil, so how does that work? - "You are free to do as I tell you"? Only when it's a genuine choice does free will have any meaning, and for that, you go to the Slithery Dude. All hail free will! ;o)

 

[TrueMyth]

That cannot fully understand God or His ways

We are innately evil

I have a suspicion that we will find very little to agree on. I see that you go to a Calvinist church, which is why I was confused when you brought up human free will, which is regularly denied by Calvinists. Now it becomes clearer.

I don't really want to get into a discussion of the merits of Calvinism on a thread which is a separate issue, but I will say just this. There are two facts which we must hold about God and his goodness: 1) God is wiser than us, and His judgments may and perhaps do often differ from ours; and 2) If God's judgments equals the reverse of ours, then we mean absolutely nothing by calling him "good" other than "God is flibbergibbet" at best, and "God is evil" at worst. An utterly unknown quality in God is no moral ground for loving or obeying him; the only reason to obey is through fear.

Thus, I reject utterly the idea that we are totally depraved. I allow that we should acknowledge God's superiority, but there had better be extraordinarily good reason to appeal to this. Rather than simply asserting that God is we know not what, and thus effectively ending the discussion without a resolution, can you please tell me why there is very good reason to thus reject our God-given moral and rational nature?

 

[TrueMyth]

Angels, including Satan do not have free will. They are only allowed what God permits them.

This is a very interesting assertion. Can you please provide Bible verses in support of this? I know of none.

 

[lilymarie]

This is a very interesting assertion. Can you please provide Bible verses in support of this? I know of none.

I think he's talking about the book of Job.

Great book btw... one of my favs.

However, Satan was in the Garden as a snake in the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil before he tempted Eve... even though the Bible doesn't say Satan ate the fruit first; it's implied and logical.

However, the book of Job states that God said (paraphrasing here and going with what I remember) go ahead and test my servant Job and do as you wish to him. God was trying to prove to Satan that no matter how much Satan hurt him or took away from him, Job still did not turn away from God nor curse God, although Job wanted to speak with God as to why he was being unjustly punished.

Job is a fascinating book. One of my favorites. Though who can really pick favorites? I love all the books of the Bible!

Anyhow, I think he might have been speaking of the book of Job.