Christian Viewpoint On The Gun Debate

[Hary89]

Trouble is people that do that do not care 300 million guns people that do not trust the government probably going to end in more violence than it would prevent.

I don't understand what you're saying. Please rephrase

 

[dogs4thewin]

I don't understand what you're saying. Please rephrase

In other words at this point I am afraid gun control would cause more violent than it would prevent because there are so many guns that there is no hope of taking them all off the streets and the people who DO care (AKA who usually obey the laws do not trust the government to stop at reasonable controls enough to surrender their guns, so you have the people who do not care about the laws that are committing gun violence now and then you have the people who follow the current laws, but do not trust the government to stop at limited gun control many of whom would be unwilling to surrender their guns without a fight leading to even more gun violence. I would even say at best those attempts would lead to wide spread civil unrest and at worst a civil war. I do not think any one with any sense or care for their fellow man wants the latter in particular.

 

[Hary89]

In other words at this point I am afraid gun control would cause more violent than it would prevent because there are so many guns that there is no hope of taking them all off the streets and the people who DO care (AKA who usually obey the laws do not trust the government to stop at reasonable controls enough to surrender their guns, so you have the people who do not care about the laws that are committing gun violence now and then you have the people who follow the current laws, but do not trust the government to stop at limited gun control many of whom would be unwilling to surrender their guns without a fight leading to even more gun violence. I would even say at best those attempts would lead to wide spread civil unrest and at worst a civil war. I do not think any one with any sense or care for their fellow man wants the latter in particular.

Okay got it, thanks. Now let's narrow this down. Are you a gun owner? If so, would you be willing to surrender your gun?

 

[dogs4thewin]

Okay got it, thanks. Now let's narrow this down. Are you a gun owner? If so, would you be willing to surrender your gun?

No the ONLY reason I am not is that with my CP (cerebral palsy) (Moderate case) I have neither the motor skills or the eyesight to handle a gun. Otherwise, when I turned 21 I am now 31 I would have tried to get a CCW and actually at this point in GA as well as 25 other states they are NOT required although in order to legally carry you have to meet the requirements to get one and you still may get one if you choose as there are benefits to them. As to the second question I am unsure I would hope I would, but on the other hand I do not trust the government to stop so thank goodness I will never have to personally make that choice.

I do however live in the rural south where most people do own guns at LEAST one per household ( we do keep one in the house I live with my mom, so I have been around guns and know MANY people who own them and a few who carry in public as well.

 

[Hary89]

No the ONLY reason I am not is that with my CP (cerebral palsy) (Moderate case) I have neither the motor skills or the eyesight to handle a gun. Otherwise, when I turned 21 I am now 31 I would have tried to get a CCW and actually at this point in GA as well as 25 other states they are NOT required although in order to legally carry you have to meet the requirements to get one and you still may get one if you choose as there are benefits to them. As to the second question I am unsure I would hope I would, but on the other hand I do not trust the government to stop so thank goodness I will never have to personally make that choice.

I do however live in the rural south where most people do own guns at LEAST one per household ( we do keep one in the house I live with my mom, so I have been around guns and know MANY people who own them and a few who carry in public as well.

Can you provide five instances in which your mom was forced to use her gun?

 

[dogs4thewin]

Can you provide five instances in which your mom was forced to use her gun?

thank goodness no BUT I will also say this we have very little violent crime in this county. This is likely at least in part because people know that you break in, rob or rape in this county you can well expect that that may well be your last action because people in this county do not start a whole lot of fights again very little violent crime, but most people ( especially in their own homes and some out in public as well are armed and in this state we have both the castle doctrine and stand your ground.

 

[RDKirk]

Okay got it, thanks. Now let's narrow this down. Are you a gun owner? If so, would you be willing to surrender your gun?

I would be willing to surrender my gun if the government were willing to accept responsibility for protecting me and my family.

But the government officially refuses to accept that responsibility.

I've lived in countries that were safe enough from violent men that I had no problem being unarmed in the home or on the street.

In the US, the effort itself of removing guns would increase the threat of violence, as long as this remains a country that makes people violent and crazy.

 

[Eschatologist]

School shootings since the 1700s which include just under 20 in the 1950s.

History of School Shootings in the United States | K12 Academics

1700s The earliest known United States shooting to happen on school property was the Pontiac's Rebellion school massacre on July 26, 1764, where four Lenape American Indian entered the schoolhouse near present-day Greencastle, Pennsylvania, shot and killed schoolmaster Enoch Brown, and killed...

www.k12academics.com

Once you get to the 1966 University of Texas massacre, then you start seeing more and more mass shootings as the firepower one person could bring to bear increased.

From the late 1980s to the early 1990s the United States saw a sharp increase in gun and gun violence in the schools. According to a survey conducted by The Harvard School of Public Health "15% said that they had carried a handgun on their person in the past 30 days, and 4% said that they had taken a handgun to school in the past year." a sharp increase from just five years earlier. By 1993, the United States saw some of the most violent time is school shooting incidences.

It's not about firepower. While advancements have been made in guns since the 50s, people were able to have semiautomatic rifles mailed to their houses without a FFL at that time. Even further back, you could buy a Thompson submachine gun before the feds reacted to its use by the mafia in the 1920s.

So again, mental health and morals are what is lacking today.

 

[Eschatologist]

The most discouraging of these "terrible morals" is how Americans cherish their guns over the lives of neighbors who are sacrificed to the gun deity.

If America is suffering from terrible morals and unnecessary gun violence then one would presume we would have the wherewithal to regulate our civilian militia well. As prescribed by our constitution.

I'll disarm myself as soon as the government disarms itself.

Pay attention to what happens to populations that are disarmed by governments. In Canada, you basically don't have a freedom of assembly anymore. It's purely up to whether their government wants to let you protest or not. They also don't have much of a freedom of speech.

In the UK, you can be thrown in jail or fined over an offensive social media post.

There are plenty of other examples of supposedly free Western countries that don't allow much of a right to be armed (if at all) where various freedoms are curtailed at the government's whims.

So, this isn't about worshipping a gun deity. It's about not worshipping the state. Gun control fanatics clearly want the population to be totally dependent on the state to defend themselves.

And when looking at the shenanigans pulled regularly by the ATF, constantly redefining rules is a strategy used by the feds to make felons out of innocent people. That's the kind of state we have in this country. Do you really want to give them a monopoly on lethal force?

 

[Eschatologist]

An ever-growing body of research consistently reaches the same conclusion. The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is our astronomical number of guns in America. Meanwhile, suicide by gun is also peaking in America. We are obviously not a pro-life nation. Suicides account for 54% of gun deaths in the United States.

Why Does the U.S. Have So Many Mass Shootings? Research Is Clear: Guns. (Published 2017)

Americans advance a lot of theories for why they have so many more gun deaths than other countries do. The answer is lying in plain sight.

www.nytimes.com

New gun deaths data in U.S. show continued rise in suicides

Gun control policies aimed at stopping gun homicide deaths and mass shootings could also prevent a less visible tragedy: suicide.

harvardpublichealth.org

While it is true that a gun is a faster way to kill yourself than many other methods, 45% of suicides in the US are not done by the use of a firearm. So, even if we could say with absolute certainty that disarming the population would get rid of 55% of suicides (which is an absurd assumption but one I'll humor for a moment), you'd still have a lot of suicide happening anyway.

To put this in perspective, the US's suicide rate is currently about 16 people per 100,000 annually. There are numerous wealthy nations that have higher suicide rates than us despite making guns difficult to obtain. For example, South Korea has a rate of about 29 per 100k. Lithuania is 26. Uruguay is 21. Belgium is 18. Despite its reputation for honor suicides, Japan has a slightly lower suicide rate than us at 15, and yet, Japan is one of the hardest countries to get a gun in. So clearly, culture has a huge bearing on suicide that is independent of gun access.

Much more likely reasons for the mass shootings have to do with mental health issues and a culture that places a very low value on life. A lot of states have abortion on demand, which is a clear sign of not valuing life very highly. Then, you have various media that glorifies violence. Rap culture has long had a problem with this, to name one example.

 

[Eschatologist]

Far too many guns and far too many irresponsible gun owners in America. We can work on both issues in my view. Failure only occurs when you quit trying, which America has done. Your mental health theory doesn't hold much water either. The first article I linked estimated only 4% of American gun deaths were related to mental health issues. Our mental health data in America is in line with data from other wealthy nations. Only our unnecessary gun violence is out of line with other countries.

Far too many irresponsible gun owners? The percentage of legal gun owners that are involved in mass shootings or any unlawful use of a firearm in general is infinitesimal. If legal gun owners were the problem, we'd have far more shootings than we already have.

Also, while America has more gun deaths per capita than most other first world nations, plenty of poorer nations with strict gun control have far more gun deaths per capita than us. Again, if it was really about guns, then the various nations with strict gun control would have substantially less gun deaths than us. The stats show a very mixed picture on that, which does often correlate with GDP per capita, but that should make it clear that poverty is a major driver of violence in general. America does have more poverty than a lot of its first world peers. Reducing that would accomplish more to lower gun deaths than any further gun restrictions.

 

[Photon Guy]

The Christian point of view is "Thou shalt not kill". I'm personally a pacifist, but I support gun ownership for self defense. Killing isn't the intent.

I've known of pacifists who are against killing or the use of force even in self defense. As far as they're concerned the only use for weapons is for use against animals, such as if you're going hunting.

Political platforms are strange like that. It would seem more logical to me that the pro-lifers should vehemently oppose the death penalty, for instance, whereas pro-choice types should support the death penalty.

The difference is that with abortion you're killing an innocent baby whereas with execution you're talking about somebody who has had a chance at life and blown it.

 

[Photon Guy]

I don't think anyone in the gun debate is against owning a gun for hunting. It's the using guns on people that people take issue with.

-CryptoLUtheran

Yes there is that argument that weapons should never be used on people, but guns are still used for hunting so that's why it's wrong for Christians to be against guns period.

 

[Photon Guy]

Few are talking about bankrupting an industry. Just stopping the sale of unregistered and unlicensed aussault weapons isn't going to bankrupt the gun manufacturing industry.

Do you know what an assault weapon is? The guns that are labelled as assault weapons function the same way most hunting rifles do with one shot per pull of the trigger, they just have certain cosmetic features that make them look like they might be used in warfare even though they're not.

 

[Photon Guy]

While it is true that a gun is a faster way to kill yourself than many other methods, 45% of suicides in the US are not done by the use of a firearm. So, even if we could say with absolute certainty that disarming the population would get rid of 55% of suicides (which is an absurd assumption but one I'll humor for a moment), you'd still have a lot of suicide happening anyway.

Look at Japan, in Japan they have among the strictest gun laws in the world and yet their suicide rate is sky high.

 

[Photon Guy]

An AR-15 isn't particularly good for home defense. A shotgun or pistol is much better. The AR-15 is not a personal defense weapon, it's too big and cumbersome for use inside a home, and the rounds present more risk of over-penetration than a pistol or shotgun. It's something that started out being sold to hobbyist as a byproduct of the Cold War, but after the Gulf War, there started to be a cult following around it because people were familiar with the weapon, and it started to have a certain cachet associated with it because of the military connections.

The AR-15 that you often find at gun shops functions the same way most hunting rifles do, it just has certain cosmetic features that make it look like a weapon of war even though it's not.

 

[Photon Guy]

The most discouraging of these "terrible morals" is how Americans cherish their guns over the lives of neighbors who are sacrificed to the gun deity.

If America is suffering from terrible morals and unnecessary gun violence then one would presume we would have the wherewithal to regulate our civilian militia well. As prescribed by our constitution.

Guns are used for hunting, the Bible justifies hunting.

 

[Photon Guy]

An ever-growing body of research consistently reaches the same conclusion. The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is our astronomical number of guns in America. Meanwhile, suicide by gun is also peaking in America.

Enacting more gun control will not lower suicide rates, just look at countries such as Japan and South Africa.

We are obviously not a pro-life nation.

As I said before, it's the people who are anti pro-life, those who want to allow abortion, who are usually want more gun control.

Suicides account for 54% of gun deaths in the United States.

So we should work on suicide prevention through means such as counseling and suicide hotlines. If we eliminated suicide we would cut down on gun deaths by 54%. More gun control will not prevent suicide it will just change the method.

 

[Photon Guy]

The question is, "How do we keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people while not punishing law abiding citizens?"

The answer is to put those dangerous people away where they can't be a danger to society. Anybody who can't be trusted with a gun can't be trusted to be running loose.

 

[dogs4thewin]

The answer is to put those dangerous people away where they can't be a danger to society. Anybody who can't be trusted with a gun can't be trusted to be running loose.

but the question is I think the poster is asking is in some cases how do you know who is who?