Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

Seems to me the issue is made overly complicated. The only difference is instead of hell being endless torment it's an age long punishment. But apparently if hell lasts 1000 years, that's not long enough. The other is perhaps the annihilation that's picked up on is the annihilation of sin rather than people. From my perspective that's UR in a nutshell.

 

[Fervent]

Seems to me the issue is made overly complicated. The only difference is instead of hell being endless torment it's an age long punishment. But apparently if hell lasts 1000 years, that's not long enough. The other is perhaps the annihilation that's pick up on is the annihilation of sin rather than people. From my perspective that's UR in a nutshell.

There's nothing complicated, it's a simple question. What does the text say? It takes too many work-arounds and "harmonizations" to support the idea that every human being has the same final destiny. Ultimately, Christianity is a book religion and any who try to get away from that are nothing but thieves and murderers.

 

[Der Alte]

Seems to me the issue is made overly complicated. The only difference is instead of hell being endless torment it's an age long punishment. But apparently if hell lasts 1000 years, that's not long enough. The other is perhaps the annihilation that's picked up on is the annihilation of sin rather than people. From my perspective that's UR in a nutshell.

But for the fact that "aionios" can be conclusively shown to mean "eternal,""everlasting,""for ever" using scripture alone. Not the silly, nonsensical term "age during." And OBTW I can do the thing with "olam" in the O.T.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.
If you read this far please spare me the empty "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh! arguments. Prove your argument with scripture alone!

[Character Limit. Continued next post]

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]
Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

 

[ozso]

There's nothing complicated, it's a simple question. What does the text say? It takes too many work-arounds and "harmonizations" to support the idea that every human being has the same final destiny. Ultimately, Christianity is a book religion and any who try to get away from that are nothing but thieves and murderers.

Christianity started out as a Church religion. And aside from Protestantism, it still is a Church religion. Also Christianity is all about thieves and murderers being saved and forgiven. It's all pretty simple until one starts complicating it.

 

[Fervent]

But for the fact that "aionios" can be conclusively shown to mean "eternal,""everlasting,""for ever" using scripture alone. Not the silly, nonsensical term "age during." And OBTW the thing with "olam" in the O.T."
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]

This would actually probably be stronger if you didn't use any examples of "aion" and simply stuck with the adjective. "Aion" as a word does not mean eternal, it's a way of reckoning time based on a quality rather than incrementally(as in "cronos"). This means it can be both eternal or not eternal depending on context, as it is the permanence of the feature defining it that determines whether it is on-going or terminates. "Aionios" on the other hand is internally defined as it is giving a quality to something else not adopting the qualities of its defining feature. As such, I don't believe there are instances in which the adjective means anything less than eternal. Considering the noun just confuses the matter.

 

[Fervent]

Christianity started out as a Church religion. And aside from Protestantism, it still is a Church religion. Also Christianity is all about thieves and murderers being saved and forgiven. It's all pretty simple until one starts complicating it.

No, it's always been a book religion from which a church sprung up over the centuries. The key to Christianity was the fulfillment of the OT as God's authoritative voice coupled with the writings of a group of close contacts that were inspired to share their wisdom. No matter how far back you go, even before complete canonization, the central focus was on what Scripture says. The church derived its authority from the Scriptures, not the other way around.

 

[Der Alte]

This would actually probably be stronger if you didn't use any examples of "aion" and simply stuck with the adjective. "Aion" as a word does not mean eternal, it's a way of reckoning time based on a quality rather than incrementally(as in "cronos"). This means it can be both eternal or not eternal depending on context, as it is the permanence of the feature defining it that determines whether it is on-going or terminates. "Aionios" on the other hand is internally defined as it is giving a quality to something else not adopting the qualities of its defining feature. As such, I don't believe there are instances in which the adjective means anything less than eternal. Considering the noun just confuses the matter.

I agree with you generally. The three vss. which have "aion" it is described/define as eternity by adjectives or descriptive phrases.

 

[ozso]

No, it's always been a book religion from which a church sprung up over the centuries. The key to Christianity was the fulfillment of the OT as God's authoritative voice coupled with the writings of a group of close contacts that were inspired to share their wisdom. No matter how far back you go, even before complete canonization, the central focus was on what Scripture says. The church derived its authority from the Scriptures, not the other way around.

I'm going by what I've heard the Catholic and Orthodox Church say about it.

 

[Fervent]

I agree with you generally. The three vss. which have "aion" it is described/define as eternity by adjectives or descriptive phrases.

Absolutely, but including them undermines the charge when someone tries to challenge it with a list of instances with "aion" where the context renders it as something else. The entire UR argument is built upon conflating "aion" with "aionios" and then engaging with "aion" as if it is the same as engaging with "aionios." The argument is technically true that the only time "aion" is eternal is when it refers to something which lasts an eternal time, but "aionios" gives the noun it modifies the quality of longevity.

 

[Fervent]

I'm going by what I've heard the Catholic and Orthodox Church say about it.

And I'm going by what an investigation of the primary sources revealed. The notion of "the church" as an authority essentially began with Cyprian of Carthage but really didn't become the power that it is until Augustine married the church with the state backing to combat the Donatists. The early writers all in some form or fashion called back to the Scriptures and drawing their authority from being the teachers of them. Catholic and Orthodox tradition is essentially a mythical history that's been revised several times, most recently meeting extensive revision at Vatican II.

 

[ozso]

And I'm going by what an investigation of the primary sources revealed. The notion of "the church" as an authority essentially began with Cyprian of Carthage but really didn't become the power that it is until Augustine married the church with the state backing to combat the Donatists. The early writers all in some form or fashion called back to the Scriptures and drawing their authority from being the teachers of them. Catholic and Orthodox tradition is essentially a mythical history that's been revised several times, most recently meeting extensive revision at Vatican II.

From what I've heard it's based on Matthew 16:18 and 1 Timothy 3:15 etc. And after all a lot of the NT is the letters of church founders to the church. If it was 350 AD right now, how much access would you have to the Bible?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Be that as it may. One personal "experience," one obscure, difficult to find reference. I couldn't find it even at Oxford, is hardly evidence that it accounts for the "hell" translation of "hades" and "Gehenna" in English language Bibles all over the world. More like a vague footnote in history.
Another UR excuse for getting "hell" out of English language Bibles is it was supposedly a Norwegian word for something or other. I typed translate and used the site that popped up. The Norwegian word for "hell" is "Helpete." That is how important "hell" was to Norwegians. Now maybe we can dispense with all those weak excuses.
As I have said a number of times even the Jews, in the Jewish Encyclopedia, have no problem equating "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" with "hell."

I thought scholars delighted in the "...obscure, difficult to find..." but apparently not if it goes against the grain. Helling fruits and veggies was, and probably still is, done, but it is a minor point - however it does take us back to the original meanings of "hell" and "infernum," which is to say, under the ground.

Of course, you change the narrative to your advantage, as you have done before. I did not mention the Norwegian word for "hell," as I was concerned with the connection between the 1611 KJV, Beowulf and old Norse mythology. If you prefer to plaster over it, be my guest, but my position is posted.

I have noticed that all three of your irrefutable Jewish sources were written long after the books of the OT. If those three propose "hell," I can only see it as the product of long contact with the Greeks and Babylonians. The very name "Babylonian Talmud" might clue you in.

 

[Fervent]

From what I've heard it's based on Matthew 16:18 and 1 Timothy 3:15 etc. And after all a lot of the NT is the letters of church founders to the church. If it was 350 AD right now, how much access would you have to the Bible?

The interpretatiion of Matthew 16 that the Catholics rely on isn't something that developed until the mid-5th century. It never appears in any document until late 4th century and didn't become prevalent until aound the quarter of the 5th. Access to Scripture would be fairly prevalent, as it was read weekly in services with a liturgical calendar developing very quickly in which the enirety of the modern canon was read through over the course of a couple of years. The documents were prevalent immediately, with issues of canon only developing as frauds were written in the 3rd century which called for the church to distinguish the genuine from the false. So if I happened to be able to read the Bible would be one of the more readily available tomes, though of course not in a single canonized document.

 

[Der Alte]

I thought scholars delighted in the "...obscure, difficult to find..." but apparently not if it goes against the grain.

I'd be more cautious about wild accusations. This one seems to be so obscure that multiple online searches doesn't reveal it. Not very useful for establishing the veracity of much of anything is it? Pity.

Helling fruits and veggies was, and probably still is, done, but it is a minor point - however it does take us back to the original meanings of "hell" and "infernum," which is to say, under the ground.

So you say. Still waiting for credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Unfortunately your memories do not fit the bill. Memory can play strange tricks. The words that are translated "hell" in some versions do not mean "under the ground" whatever "helling" might have meant sometime, somewhere yet to be established.

Of course, you change the narrative to your advantage, as you have done before. I did not mention the Norwegian word for "hell," as I was concerned with the connection between the 1611 KJV, Beowulf and old Norse mythology. If you prefer to plaster over it, be my guest, but my position is posted.

I changed nothing. We two are not the only ones reading this thread, others have said the origin of hell was "Norway,"" Norwegian" which is what "Norse" refers to.

I have noticed that all three of your irrefutable Jewish sources were written long after the books of the OT. If those three propose "hell," I can only see it as the product of long contact with the Greeks and Babylonians. The very name "Babylonian Talmud" might clue you in.

irrelevant deflection. I am not interested in what you "see" or don't see, what you suppose, think etc. Everything I quoted was written by Jewish scholars quoting Jewish writings and everything I quoted was part of the Jewish belief extant in Israel before and during the time of Jesus. Jesus grew up in that culture and would have known the Jewish beliefs.
He confronted the Jews about their beliefs and practices quite a few times but He never confronted them about their belief in the fiery, eternal punishment in sheol and Gehinnom.
Jesus also did not accuse the Jews of assimilating any beliefs or practices from the Greeks or Babylonians or any other cultures as He would have had to do if what you assume is correct. Ergo that is false.

 

[ozso]

The interpretatiion of Matthew 16 that the Catholics rely on isn't something that developed until the mid-5th century. It never appears in any document until late 4th century and didn't become prevalent until aound the quarter of the 5th. Access to Scripture would be fairly prevalent, as it was read weekly in services with a liturgical calendar developing very quickly in which the enirety of the modern canon was read through over the course of a couple of years. The documents were prevalent immediately, with issues of canon only developing as frauds were written in the 3rd century which called for the church to distinguish the genuine from the false. So if I happened to be able to read the Bible would be one of the more readily available tomes, though of course not in a single canonized document.

When it comes to what the church taught, I prefer to limit that to the first four to five hundred years. But this is getting off track which is my fault. Sometimes I reply to posts while on the go, and don't digest them as well as when I'm sitting down at home. Going back to your post:

There's nothing complicated, it's a simple question. What does the text say? It takes too many work-arounds and "harmonizations" to support the idea that every human being has the same final destiny. Ultimately, Christianity is a book religion and any who try to get away from that are nothing but thieves and murderers.

I'm not sure what to make of that. Are saying UR proponents are thieves and murderers?

 

[Fervent]

I'm not sure what to make of that. Are saying UR proponents are thieves and murderers?

If they try to pry the glory of Christ from the Scriptures He has bound us to. Do you prefer wolves whose god is their belly?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

"If." Except Jesus didn't come to save the world, He came only for the lost sheep of Israel.

That seems to be the nub of the problem. So gentiles are excluded. Seems Christendom's laboured in vain then.

 

[ozso]

If they try to pry the glory of Christ from the Scriptures He has bound us to. Do you prefer wolves whose god is their belly?

What do you mean by "pry the glory of Christ from the Scriptures"?

 

[Fervent]

What do you mean by "pry the glory of Christ from the Scriptures"?

Reversing the order from drawing doctrine from the text to using the text to prop up a doctrine that the bulk of it doesn't support and then complaining when people try to work out what the text itself is saying in the cherry picked verses. To prioritize maintaining a philosophical system over rendering the text and letting it speak for itself.