Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Shrewd Manager]

You have no idea what I believe and yet call me a "Son of Hell". That says a lot about you. Not Shrewd!

So do you contemplate all the folks who are going to hell forever? There was a brother who ran a calculator on CF, who'd regularly report along the lines, 'This week another 5,234 ppl have entered the fiery sector of Hades'. Do you sometimes think along these lines?

Because if you do, how is this not passive condemnation, no different in principle to the Pharisee who thinks himself more worthy than the tax collectors and harlots?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is probably where he would PREFER to hang out. - lol

Definitely lol! Might also be seen at the Firearms forum? Prayer and Encouragement? Persecuted Christians? Conspiracy Theories!

 

[Saint Steven]

Definitely lol! Might also be seen at the Firearms forum? Prayer and Encouragement? Persecuted Christians? Conspiracy Theories!

He'd feel right at home being called a heretic, like the rest of us. - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

He'd feel right at home being called a heretic, like the rest of us. - lol

I heard Paul got banned for a month for calling someone 'foolish'.

 

[Saint Steven]

I heard Paul got banned for a month for calling someone 'foolish'.

Good thing we have the workaround.
We can quote what he said and blame it on him. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

But to me the simple fact is that salvation was only made possible by and through the cross, regardless if one, a few, many, most or all are saved. NO ONE, regardless of their number could ever gain salvation without Jesus having been crucified.

That's solid gold right there. Well said, friend.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Good thing we have the workaround.
We can quote what he said and blame it on him. - lol

Complain to the Mods as follows:

Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

 

[Andrewn]

The following verses have been quoted several times as evidence against the possibility of post-mortem salvation. Verses from the OT are clearly irrelevant. But I will briefly comment on the 3 NT verses to show that they, also, are irrelevant to the discussion:

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Jesus was thinking of His speedy departure out of the world of life and death. The latter puts an end to the activity of every one on earth (even to that of Christ in His human manifestation). "His own great work of doing the work of Him that sent Him, could only be done when that day was present. It has, of course, been ever done in the work of His church under the guidance of His Spirit; but the work of His own human activity on earth ceased when the night came."

1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Those who have physically died will be resurrected again at the Lord's 2nd coming. They have not been lost and we must continue to have this hope that their condition will change.

Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Before Gentile believers came to Christ, they lived in the world without hope and without God. "But St. Paul’s description ought to be applied strictly, not to heathen life in its nobler and purer forms, but to the heathen life of Asia Minor in his days. What that was in moral degradation and in loss of all spiritual religion, ill compensated by the inevitable proneness to various superstitions, all contemporary literature testifies. From it came, as the Romans declared, the corruption which overspread the whole empire, and which St. Paul describes so terribly in Romans 1:18-32."

Quotations are from Ellicott's Commentary.

 

[Saint Steven]

Complain to the Mods as follows:

Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

I would love to see the look on their face when they got that one. - lol

"Sons of Hell"
They refuse to own it, while they refuse to disown it.
What's to like?

 

[Saint Steven]

Infernalist is used to differentiate from Annihalist - both are non-Universalist Infernalist seems to be the accepted term for a believer in an eternal hell.

I've never used the word Damnationist btw.

Frankly, I think the whole discussion gets watered down if we don't use the common terms. Kudos to you for not using "Damnationist".

As @MMXX wrote, those are the terms used in the literature. How will new-comers understand what we are talking about without the use of common terminology? Should we hand out decoder rings at the door? (sigh)

 

[Andrewn]

God provides more-than-sufficient clues, but His revelation isn't so explicit that it coerces belief. We're given free will and the clues (Jesus being one pretty big one) and tasked with making a decision for or against God. We're informed clearly and explicitly that this choice will have eternal consequences.

It would be nice to see you test the hypothesis that "God provides more-than-sufficient clues" in the Exploring Christianity forum:

Exploring Christianity

 

[Andrewn]

Along those lines, it appears that my long post above, actually dealing with relevant verses, has struck the peanut gallery dumb.

Actually, I appreciate the verses you quoted in post #4496. But they do not support your point of view. Some verses show that sinners will not be in the Kingdom of God, which everyone agrees about. Other verses show that sinners will be destroyed, which is not the same thing as ECT.

 

[Andrewn]

Got any examples of salvation after death?

1 Peter 4:6 ESV
For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

 

[ozso]

Actually, I appreciate the verses you quoted in post #4496. But they do not support your point of view. Some verses show that sinners will not be in the Kingdom of God, which everyone agrees about. Other verses show that sinners will be destroyed, which is not the same thing as ECT.

None of the views are without a certain amount of apprearnt "plot hole" factor in my opinion.

 

[ozso]

1 Peter 4:6 ESV
For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

That appears to be as definitive as it gets. @Der Alte, I'd be very interested in your take on that verse.

 

[Irkle Berserkle]

Actually, I appreciate the verses you quoted in post #4496. But they do not support your point of view. Some verses show that sinners will not be in the Kingdom of God, which everyone agrees about. Other verses show that sinners will be destroyed, which is not the same thing as ECT.

Certainly, if the verses I quoted were the only ones in the NT to address the fate of the unsaved, I agree they arguably point toward annihilation, if one thinks Paul was using "destruction" in that sense. They are, however, not the only such NT verses. As I stated, Paul's references to the fate of the unsaved are largely "offhand" - he's speaking entirely to believers. Annihilation is certainly a possibility, but I don't believe the thrust of the NT as a whole is in that direction.

You say they don't support my position because you haven't read my posts carefully enough to understand my position. I am not rabid ECT. The point of post #4496 is that 1 Corinthians 15:22 can't reasonably be interpreted as having anything whatsoever to do with universalism, which it can't and which was the challenge posed to me.

You don't think any universalists believe sinners will be in the kingdom of God? I just came from a forum where the universalism thread had upwards of 20K posts, and they virtually all thought that.

It would be nice to see you test the hypothesis that "God provides more-than-sufficient clues" in the Exploring Christianity forum:

Exploring Christianity

Why don't you do that, or why haven't you done that? This isn't the first of your posts that puzzles me as to what sort of notions of Christianity you as an Anglican actually have.

I would say that creation itself - natural theology - is rather a screamingly large clue. The Incarnation and Resurrection are rather large clues. What Christianity has accomplished in individual lives and society as a whole is a rather large clue. The explanatory power of the Christian message vis-a-vis other religions is a rather large clue.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think that is a repeating pattern.

Until when?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I thought kicking butts came first. As in...
Kicking butts and taking names. - lol

Nah. Just take names. Because otherwise, my foot would get too sore ...

 

[Andrewn]

None of the views are without a certain amount of apprearnt "plot hole" factor in my opinion.

This is why I'm not as good a person as those who believe that ultimately 0% will be lost. My hope is that no more than 1% will be lost. May God's will be done.

 

[hedrick]

On 1 Pet 4:6

That appears to be as definitive as it gets. @Der Alte, I'd be very interested in your take on that verse.

Yes, it's pretty clear. But it's also a fairly specific situation. It's people who didn't have a chance to hear the Gospel, and were now hearing it for the first time.

I think a parallel would be someone who when he appears before God for judgement, now realizes that things he thought there was no evidence for are actually true. It's not justification for the idea that after years of torment everyone will eventually love God.

However, this verse is widely understood as having a meaning different than the obvious one. Both of my commentaries on it take such an approach. The Hermeneia commentary suggests two non-obvious alternatives:
* The dead are spiritually dead, not physically dead
* The dead are the Christian dead. This simply explains why they heard the Gospel.