Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Der Alte]

* * *Jos 10:13
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Sun doesn't orbit the earth, people.* * *

Many times what is written is written from the point of view of the writer. Even today we know that the sun does not circle the earth but we still say sun rise and sun set. Hope that helps.

 

[Gundy22]

Yes - we still have the times of sunrise and sunset in the newspaper - but we know that is not literal,

 

[ozso]

Re-treading ground already covered is little more than a distraction.

Right all you know about it is what Der Alte came up with.

 

[public hermit]

IOW nothing definitive.

"If you believe, you are saved." That's as definitive as it gets. What is not definitive is your argument that Jesus affirms a particular conception of hell that you claim was held by 1st century Judeans.

 

[ozso]

Yes, based on the behavior reported in the Genesis account, A&E were clearly out of their minds after eating thereof. The unanswered question, "Who told you that you were naked?" is quite intriguing. Who indeed? At the end of the previous chapter, they were "naked and unashamed".

The fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was an invitation to the enemy to enter the minds of humankind. Spiritual death, as you put it.

The strange thing about biblical terms like predestined and elect is the obvious exclusions of everyone else. And a Damnationist would have to conclude that those outside the elect are predestined to destruction. Why would God do that? To be so fickle about the wooing of the Spirit as to overlook (bypass) the vast majority.

Excuse me, but I pay my tithes, they don't.

 

[Saint Steven]

The verses that say "the dead know nothing" are counter-manded by Samuel talking to King Saul - even prophesying his death - and beggar lazarus, rich man and Abraham conscious - living and knowing things in Luke 16.

In the same chapter as "the dead know nothing" quote we find this reference to "the realm of the dead, where you are going".

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

 

[Der Alte]

"If you believe, you are saved." That's as definitive as it gets. What is not definitive is your argument that Jesus affirms a particular conception of hell that you claim was held by 1st century Judeans.

In case you haven't noticed I don't just "claim" I provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence provided by the Jews themselves, i.e. the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1971 Encyclopedia Judaica and the pre-Christian Talmud. But UR-ists will not even read or interact with what I post.
UR-ists have equal access to the same credible etc. free evidence I do, but they will not even look for credible evidence. They search high and low for something, anything, by somebody, somewhere which supports their UR assumptions/presuppositions.
And for your edification. Someone giving a different interpretation of a verse does not disprove any other interpretation.

 

[public hermit]

In case you haven't noticed I don't just "claim" I provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence provided by the Jews themselves, i.e. the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1971 Encyclopedia Judaica and the pre-Christian Talmud.

I guess I'll just repeat what I said above.

Whether that conception was the prevailing conception, whether Jesus is affirming that conception, these are debatable. I've watched y'all debate it on this very thread. You seem to think your conclusion is unassailable. It's not. If you will admit that much, perhaps some progress can be made.

 

[Der Alte]

I guess I'll just repeat what I said above.
Whether that conception was the prevailing conception, whether Jesus is affirming that conception, these are debatable. I've watched y'all debate it on this very thread. You seem to think your conclusion is unassailable. It's not. If you will admit that much, perhaps some progress can be made.

You are still repeating the same false assumptions.
I have never claimed that eternal punishment was the prevailing belief. In my post where I post the quotes from the Jewish, Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud I very clearly say.

…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not refute anything in this post.​

If you are going to respond to me at least have the integrity to actually read my posts and address what I say.
My posts are for the most part unassailable since I quote credible sources and I don't say anything contrary to what I quote. If you had actually read my post you might know that.

 

[public hermit]

You are still repeating the same false assumptions.
I have never claimed that eternal punishment was the prevailing belief. In my post where I post the quotes from the Jewish, Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud I very clearly say.

…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not refute anything in this post.​

If you are going to respond to me at least have the integrity to actually read my posts and address what I say.
My posts are for the most part unassailable since I quote credible sources and I don't say anything contrary to what I quote. If you had actually read my post you might know that.

Okay, not prevailing but one of a number. That just weakens your position.

And, um, I've read your posts a number of times because you post the exact same content over and over. So, you know, don't even.

 

[Fervent]

Right all you know about it is what Der Alte came up with.

No, I am simply running with the concession that PH made in the matter and showing why their counterargument fails. The ground was ceded, and I don't have interest in re-treading over and over again.

 

[Gundy22]

Steve - I DON'T BELIEVE the verses that say the dead know nothing - I believe WHAT JESUS SAID in Luke 16 - Jesus trumps writer of Ecclesiastes and other verses that the SDA Soul Sleepers jump up and down on. If you want to hold Ecclesiastes higher then what Jesus says - join the Soul Sleepers of the SDA and JW's.

 

[ozso]

No, I am simply running with the concession that PH made in the matter and showing why their counterargument fails. The ground was ceded, and I don't have interest in re-treading over and over again.

It's okay, hedrick took care of it.

 

[Der Alte]

Okay, not prevailing but one of a number. That just weakens your position.
And, um, I've read your posts a number of times because you post the exact same content over and over. So, you know, don't even.

If you have been reading my post you must have a short attention span because what I said does not rely on numbers. The Jews had a belief in hell before and during the time of Jesus. When Jesus taught about "eternal punishment" that supported the Jewish belief in Hell. If as UR-ists argue the Jewish belief was wrong Jesus should have condemned it. He didn't. Who was wrong Jesus or UR-ists?

 

[ozso]

If you have been reading my post you must have a short attention span because what I said does not rely on numbers. The Jews had a belief in hell before and during the time of Jesus. When Jesus taught about "eternal punishment" that supported the Jewish belief in Hell. If as UR-ists argue the Jewish belief was wrong Jesus should have condemned it. He didn't. Who was wrong Jesus or UR-ists?

Which belief do you mean since you just said there were several. You’ve come up with a big mess that needs to be sorted out. Blaming others for not being able to figure it out, won't fix it.

 

[ozso]

My belief is that Jesus was drawing from His own written Word, regardless of whatever the scribes and Pharisees et al had come up with in the meantime, which still remains unclear. The scriptures however were there beforehand and are still here for us to examine. I say Jesus the Word went by the word of God exclusively. It seems likely to me that people have taken what Jesus said, and erroneously tied it together with whatever man came up with outside of scripture at some point.

 

[Hmm]

Which belief do you mean since you just said there were several. You’ve come up with a big mess that needs to be sorted out. Blaming others for not being able to figure it out, won't fix it.

Lol. It's not surprising it's such a mess because, as you've said previously, Hell is a place from Norse mythology and so no 1st century Jew would even have heard about it, let alone believe in it.

So Hell doesn't appear in the Greek NT. Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus do instead but all three of these were translated as 'Hell' in English Bibles. So if you believe that the grave (Hades) is the same place as where the wicked are purified (Gehenna) and where evil angels are imprisoned (Tartarus) and that these are all the same as the Norse pagan Hell, it's not surprising that it led to the big mess that is ECT.

"That's another fine mess you've gotten me into."
Oliver Hardy.

 

[Saint Steven]

Steve - I DON'T BELIEVE the verses that say the dead know nothing - I believe WHAT JESUS SAID in Luke 16 - Jesus trumps writer of Ecclesiastes and other verses that the SDA Soul Sleepers jump up and down on. If you want to hold Ecclesiastes higher then what Jesus says - join the Soul Sleepers of the SDA and JW's.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to refute what you were writing, I was being supportive. The whole book of Ecclesiastes is about what happens under the sun. (in the physical realm) So "the dead know nothing" phrase is in reference to the dead here. They know nothing. Can do nothing.

In other words, once you are dead, your life here is done. You'll do no more here. Which seems to go without saying, but...

In the same chapter as "the dead know nothing" quote we find this reference to "the realm of the dead, where you are going".

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

 

[ozso]

Lol. It's not surprising it's such a mess because, as you've said previously, Hell is a place from Norse mythology and so no 1st century Jew would even have heard about it, let alone believe in it.

So Hell doesn't appear in the Greek NT. Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus do instead but all three of these were translated as 'Hell' in English Bibles. So if you believe that the grave (Hades) is the same place as where the wicked are purified (Gehenna) and where evil angels are imprisoned (Tartarus) and that these are all the same as the Norse pagan Hell, it's not surprising that it led to the big mess that is ECT.

"That's another fine mess you've gotten me into."
Oliver Hardy.

What's in question here is gehenna. Although gehenna is a Greek word for a similar word in Aramaic and ultimately in Hebrew. The mess I'm referring to is the jumbled wall of text that gets posted a lot that's supposed to define what gehenna was and or meant in Jesus' time.

I don't have any reason yet to conclude Jesus didn't say gehenna. So the plan is to find out what exactly gehenna meant, how it ties in with OT scripture, what meanings and or implications it carried, why Jesus used it etc. I know some or all of those things to a degree already. So it's just a matter of putting it together in a clear concise comprehensive presentation.

However at this time I think it was mainly a reference to 70 AD.

 

[Saint Steven]

"That's another fine mess you've gotten me into."
Oliver Hardy.

I was torn between an AGREE and a FUNNY rating on this post. - lol