Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[public hermit]

I have a theory that everyone will be surprised at where they end up. (exaggeration for effect)
Many who think they have it made will require some fine tuning. And some that think they haven't got a prayer will be welcomed with open arms.

Matthew 21:31 NIV
... Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

Whenever Jesus talks about who is in the front of the line and who is at the end, they are always in the same line. He never talks about two lines, I don't think. It's a metaphor, so grain of salt, but still.

 

[Der Alte]

Your post is so full of lack of understanding that it's probably just sidestepping into territory you are familiar with. I'm not surprised anymore with your tactics, but I see what you did there: unable to answer about "hell" in popular culture, you just slide into the mode you are most comfortable with. BTW, I suppose you're unaware that SOME English words have not changed much, like "blood" and "hell."

A lot of criticism without making a definite point.
Please tell me, if you can, which I doubt, what difference does it make in the long run? The only people who have any concern at all about the ancient meaning of the Norwegian word are UR-ists on forums like this. OBTW the current Norwegian word for hell is "helvete." Even Norwegians don't care what "hel" meant 100s of years ago.
You seem to have ignored the often repeated documentation I have provided about the existence of the Jewish belief, in what English speaking people call hell, 16 centuries +/- before Dante. What English speaking people call it is absolutely irrelevant to anything. The concept did NOT originate with the Norwegians or Dante. All the first Christians in Israel were Jews who were familiar with the Jewish belief in what we call hell.

 

[Der Alte]

Whenever Jesus talks about who is in the front of the line and who is at the end, they are always in the same line. He never talks about two lines, I don't think. It's a metaphor, so grain of salt, but still.

Here are a few more grains of salt.
Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught e.g. “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times if the Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed,

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCB​

 

[public hermit]

Here a few more grains of salt.
Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught e.g. “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times if the Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed,

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCB​

You didn't answer my first question. Would it be a surprise or a disappointment if everyone is there in glory?

Edit: That question is apropos to the thread, despite my sketchy participation.

 

[Der Alte]

You didn't answer my first question. Would it be a surprise or a disappointment if everyone is there in glory?
Edit: That question is apropos to the thread, despite my sketchy participation.

Yes it would surprise but not disappoint me. Did you read my post before you responded? See e.g. Matthew 7:23. Did Jesus ever say anything which would contradict the several quotes I posted?

 

[hedrick]

Yes it would surprise but not disappoint me. Did you read my post before you responded? See e.g. Matthew 7:23. Did Jesus ever say anything which would contradict the several quotes I posted?

Remember that I'm not quite convinced of universalism, but even I can give you an answer to this:

"But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return.e Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful" (Luke 6:35-37)

"Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny", which suggests that at least in same case the punishment is temporary.

Indeed there is quite a range of punishments. From Luke:

* the house falls
* they lose life
* God could destroy you
* beaten with many blows
* thrown into prison
* cut down (of a tree)
* banished, with weeping and gnashing teeth
* miss the banquet
* miss the party
* sent to Hades
* take mina away from them

Most of those do not suggest ECT. You could draw several conclusions. One might be that it's different for different people. My conclusion is that none of these is literal, and it's a mistake to cherry-pick the most violent. I would also warn against using Matthew exclusively. He seems to have concentrated on the most vengeful images.

I do agree that Jesus may have used the Jewish concept of Gehenna (though see below) which was thought to be eternal. But first, that's only one of many images he used. And Jews thought people often weren't in it eternally.

I'd also point out that the only uses of Gehenna in the Gospels are in Matthew, except one in Mark that's in a hyperbolic passage and one in Luke that's hypothetical. I'm a bit concerned that Christians have been overly influenced by Matthew and the Rev, both of which are likely responding to conflict in a way that I'm not sure reflects Jesus' approach. (Outside the Gospels, there is one in James that is pretty clearly metaphorical.) This doesn't require Matthew to be wrong, just selective. (Luke is known for the rich man and Lazarus, but that's Hades, which was typically thought to be temporary.)

I think ECT is based on a selective reading of the NT.

 

[ozso]

Yes it would surprise but not disappoint me. Did you read my post before you responded? See e.g. Matthew 7:23. Did Jesus ever say anything which would contradict the several quotes I posted?

Considering you've posted all that umpteen times, it's quite likely PH and everyone else has already responded to it. Maybe you should make a list of who's responded to your reruns and keep checking it twice.

 

[Der Alte]

Remember that I'm not quite convinced of universalism, but even I can give you an answer to this:
"But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return.e Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful" (Luke 6:35-37)
"Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny", which suggests that at least in same case the punishment is temporary.
Indeed there is quite a range of punishments. From Luke:
* the house falls
* they lose life
* God could destroy you
* beaten with many blows
* thrown into prison
* cut down (of a tree)
* banished, with weeping and gnashing teeth
* miss the banquet
* miss the party
* sent to Hades
* take mina away from them
Most of those do not suggest ECT. You could draw several conclusions. One might be that it's different for different people. My conclusion is that none of these is literal, and it's a mistake to cherry-pick the most violent. I would also warn against using Matthew exclusively. He seems to have concentrated on the most vengeful images.
I do agree that Jesus often used the Jewish concept of Gehenna, which was thought to be eternal. But first, that's only one of many images he used. And Jews thought people often weren't in it eternally.
I'd also point out that the only uses of Gehenna in the Gospels are in Matthew, except one in Mark that's in a hyperbolic passage and one in Luke that's hypothetical. I'm a bit concerned that Christians have been overly influenced by Matthew and the Rev, both of which are likely responding to persecution in a way that I'm not sure reflects Jesus' approach. (Outside the Gospels, there is one in James that is pretty clearly metaphorical.)

I think it's a mistake to try to apply parables literally. As for Matthew I also quoted Luke where the story, NOT parable, of Lazarus and the rich man is. Hebrews also has a fate worse than death.
I come back to my point expressed in my post.
Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, if the Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed,

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"
Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCB​

 

[Der Alte]

Considering you've posted all that umpteen times, it's quite likely PH and everyone else has already responded to it. Maybe you should make a list of who's responded to your reruns and keep checking it twice.

I'll make you a deal, when you guys stop posting the same ol' lame ol' specious arguments and out-of-context proof texts I will stop responding. But I think a snowball has a better chance at the equator.

 

[Saint Steven]

Considering you've posted all that umpteen times, it's quite likely PH and everyone else has already responded to it. Maybe you should make a list of who's responded to your reruns and keep checking it twice.

Ho, ho, ho...

 

[public hermit]

Yes it would surprise but not disappoint me. Did you read my post before you responded? See e.g. Matthew 7:23. Did Jesus ever say anything which would contradict the several quotes I posted?

I'm glad to hear that. One wonders, but it's good to ask before assuming.

Yeah, Matthew is the go to gospel, I know. Jesus said plenty, according to the gospels we have, that would put into question ECT. I'm not a verse poster because it's all been done. The scriptures are ambiguous, which is why we have these threads.

 

[hedrick]

Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed,

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"
Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCB​

It's an interesting question. I think Jesus' talk about God as father, along with Luke 6:35-36 makes that point. Jesus was preaching to ordinary people, who in common belief of the time faced temporary punishment, not nations persecuting Israel, as Judith is referring to.

 

[Der Alte]

It's an interesting question. I think Jesus' talk about God as father, along with Luke 6:35-36 makes that point. Jesus was preaching to ordinary people, who in common belief of the time faced temporary punishment, not nations persecuting Israel, as Judith is referring to.

Judith was quoted in the Jewish Encyclopedia as referring to eternal punishment, the article did not specify nations persecuting Israel. But weren't the Jews being persecuted by Rome at the time of Jesus.
You may read the entire article here.
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[hedrick]

Judith was quoted in the Jewish Encyclopedia as referring to eternal punishment, the article did not specify nations persecuting Israel. But weren't the Jews being persecuted by Rome at the time of Jesus.
You may read the entire article here.
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Judith 16:17 "Woe to the nations that rise up against my kindred! the Lord Almighty will take vengeance of them in the day of judgment, in putting fire and worms in their flesh; and they shall feel them, and weep for ever."

I'm sure many Jews were familiar with the text, but how likely were they to associate it with the fate of them or anyone they knew? Your article describes one common view at the time, that aside from a few completely wicked people, Gehenna was temporary for most.

 

[Hmm]

The scriptures are ambiguous, which is why we have these threads.

Origen, the early church father, said something about why this is. He believed that the letter of the Word uses the motivation.of fear to change our behaviour when we are still in our immaturity, and the Spirit of the Word is used to change our inner heart attitudes as we progress.

So, in his view, the Bible is meets us in different ways according to the stage we are in in our walk. He said that as we progress and mature, the water of the Word is transfigured into wine.

For instance, the lake of fire can be understood literally as a place of ECT. Or, as we've discussed here, it can be understood spiritually as a refiner’s fire that purifies us fro our sin. It all depends on whether we read it by the letter or by the Spirit.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm glad to hear that. One wonders, but it's good to ask before assuming.
Yeah, Matthew is the go to gospel, I know. Jesus said plenty, according to the gospels we have, that would put into question ECT. I'm not a verse poster because it's all been done. The scriptures are ambiguous, which is why we have these threads.

Those who believe that Jesus meant what He said and said what He meant when He said "These shall go away into eternal punishment" see no ambiguity at all. And despite the accusations to the contrary I did not "grow up" in a "hell" teaching church. I became a Christian in my mid-20s when LBJ was POTUS. I questioned everything from day 1.

 

[Saint Steven]

Origen, the early church father, said something about why this is. He believed that the letter of the Word uses the motivation.of fear to change our behaviour when we are still in our immaturity, and the Spirit of the Word is used to change our inner heart attitudes as we progress.

So, in his view, the Bible is meets us in different ways according to the stage we are in in our walk. He said that as we progress and mature, the water of the Word is transfigured into wine.

For instance, the lake of fire can be understood literally as a place of ECT. Or, as we've discussed here, it can be understood spiritually as a refiner’s fire that purifies us fro our sin. It all depends on whether we read it by the letter or by the Spirit.

That's very interesting, what you are writing, about the maturing process in our spiritual growth. I remember feeling somewhat abandoned by God at one point. But realized later that it was part of the maturing process.

Which is the same as with physical parents. You grow apart before you grow back together again. I wasn't prepared for that, in my relationship with God, when the growing apart happened.

I wonder how many leave the faith at that point. A real test of your commitment to a relationship with God.

 

[Der Alte]

Origen, the early church father, said something about why this is. He believed that the letter of the Word uses the motivation.of fear to change our behaviour when we are still in our immaturity, and the Spirit of the Word is used to change our inner heart attitudes as we progress.
So, in his view, the Bible is meets us in different ways according to the stage we are in in our walk. He said that as we progress and mature, the water of the Word is transfigured into wine.
For instance, the lake of fire can be understood literally as a place of ECT. Or, as we've discussed here, it can be understood spiritually as a refiner’s fire that purifies us fro our sin. It all depends on whether we read it by the letter or by the Spirit.

According to what I read here, Origen, and a lot of other ECF supposedly said a bunch of stuff they didn't say. Here is what Origen said about "aionios life" John 4:14

(59) He [Heracleon] is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power.[John 4:14]
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
‘Origen. (19931. commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13-32. (1. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (vol. 89, pp. 67—69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​

 

[Der Alte]

Judith 16:17 "Woe to the nations that rise up against my kindred! the Lord Almighty will take vengeance of them in the day of judgment, in putting fire and worms in their flesh; and they shall feel them, and weep for ever."
I'm sure many Jews were familiar with the text, but how likely were they to associate it with the fate of them or anyone they knew? Your article describes one common view at the time, that aside from a few completely wicked people, Gehenna was temporary for most.

There was also a significant belief that many would be punished for ever in a fiery place.

 

[Hmm]

That's a good analogy. I think it is a very similar process.

I guess you're quite likely to leave the faith at that point if you go to a church that tells you if you're not happy clappy all the time, you haven't found God yet. But perhaps God withdraws the warm feelings from the early stage because He wants us to live Him for Himself, not because of the warm glow we were getting.