Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Andrewn]

Judgement is good. We want God to defeat evil. And we want him to uphold justice. Many people think justice means punishing the wicked. This is a view with reasonable support in Scripture.

The Scriptures also have much to say about mercy:

I recently watched on Netflix "Hotel Mumbai" about the 2008 Islamic terrorist attack. Do the terrorists need to be judged? For sure. Do they deserve ECT for 4 billion years? Would that be justice?

The reason this issue is heated is because it is tied to the question of the purpose of Christianity. I think for Paul and John it was eternal life. Implicit in this is that without faith you don’t get eternal life, though it's clearly possible to challenge that.

The terrorists seemed to have been < 30 y/o. How many life sentences do they deserve? How long does it take to restore them to the Imago Dei? Isn't reconciliation of people to God the purpose of Christianity?

Rom 5:18 So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is justification leading to life for everyone.

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order:Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at his coming, those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he abolishes all rule and all authority and power.

Unfortunately God did not command that His Bible be written to appeal to the fickle sensibilities of fallible mankind.

Justice and mercy are fickle things? And I thought that God commands us to show these qualities in our lives. Silly me.

Perhaps we should get used to watching horror movies?

 

[Saint Steven]

I recently watched on Netflix "Hotel Mumbai" about the 2008 Islamic terrorist attack. Do the terrorists need to be judged? For sure. Do they deserve ECT for 4 billion years? Would that be justice?

Great point. And in reality, if there was ETERNAL conscious torment, they would gladly exchange it for a mere "4 billion years". Just sayin'...

The Infernalists seem to have no concept of what forever means. And I contend that three to five seconds in "hell" would be enough to correct anyone's behavior. So, what's the point of anything more than that?

Sadistic torture on the grandest scale imaginable. Blasphemous from my perspective to accuse God of such a pointless plan for the vast majority of humankind. As if his love is balanced with such a flawed definition of justice. Makes me sick at the thought.

 

[Saint Steven]

Rom 5:18 So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is justification leading to life for everyone.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Neither the condemnation, nor the justification are ANY of our doing. The two Adams have done this. The second Adam (Christ) cancelling the consequences of the first Adam. Amazing love.

 

[Andrewn]

Currently, I'm reading a version calling itself simply "The Scriptures." I like it, but it takes some getting used to.

Have you tried to compare The Scriptures and The Tree of Life version. Both are produced by Messianic Jews. The former from South Africa and the latter from the USA. I think they are very close and the TLV is probably a revision of The Scriptures. TLV is available on BibleGateway.

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps we should get used to watching horror movies?

That's a great comparison.
Some treat "hell" that way. While those in the movie are being mercilessly terrified and harmed, they sit by and eat popcorn. Entertainment, as long as it isn't happening to you.

Hmm said: ↑
Justice and mercy are fickle things? And I thought that God commands us to show these qualities in our lives. Silly me.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, we have Happy Holidays too, and Winter Festival, so not to offend people who, as you say, are not offended anyway! It's a mad, mad world! In fact, I can't remember the last time I've been on a madder world.

Madder - an Eurasian herb (Rubia tinctorum of the family Rubiaceae, the madder family) with whorled leaves and small yellowish panicled flowers succeeded by dark berries broadly : any of several related herbs (genus Rubia)

 

[Saint Steven]

Madder - an Eurasian herb (Rubia tinctorum of the family Rubiaceae, the madder family) with whorled leaves and small yellowish panicled flowers succeeded by dark berries broadly : any of several related herbs (genus Rubia)

What are the effects? Madness? - lol

 

[Lazarus Short]

Have you tried to compare The Scriptures and The Tree of Life version. Both are produced by Messianic Jews. The former from South Africa and the latter from the USA. I think they are very close and the TLV is probably a revision of The Scriptures. TLV is available on BibleGateway.

I did not know that - thanks!

 

[Saint Steven]

What are the effects? Madness? - lol

A little research indicates that the roots are used to make red dye.

Lazarus Short said: ↑
Madder - an Eurasian herb (Rubia tinctorum of the family Rubiaceae, the madder family) with whorled leaves and small yellowish panicled flowers succeeded by dark berries broadly : any of several related herbs (genus Rubia)

 

[Lazarus Short]

That's a great comparison.
Some treat "hell" that way. While those in the movie are being mercilessly terrified and harmed, they sit by and eat popcorn. Entertainment, as long as it isn't happening to you.

Hmm said: ↑
Justice and mercy are fickle things? And I thought that God commands us to show these qualities in our lives. Silly me.

Your movie mention reminds me that the "hell" crowd counts their proof texts over and over and never realizes that the most important prop of "that place" is fiction, from the epic poetry of Dante and Milton to the horror-prose of Mary K Baxter. We can add to that movies ("Little Nicky" comes to mind) and cartoons (animated and non-animated). Add to that, jokes and the like. As ever, don't forget the "hel" of Norse mythology...more fiction.

 

[Saint Steven]

Your movie mention reminds me that the "hell" crowd counts their proof texts over and over and never realizes that the most important prop of "that place" is fiction, from the epic poetry of Dante and Milton to the horror-prose of Mary K Baxter. We can add to that movies ("Little Nicky" comes to mind) and cartoons (animated and non-animated). Add to that, jokes and the like. As ever, don't forget the "hel" of Norse mythology...more fiction.

Yes, our culture is saturated with it. And not just the religious culture, secular culture. It's rather iconic.

I suppose this is part of the knee-jerk reaction we get when we question it. How dare we? !!!!

 

[Andrewn]

Still searching for the perfect UR Bible? What's wrong with the Eastern Greek Orthodox version which I have quoted a few times?
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the NT?
EOB Matthew 25 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]
1cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2o11). The Eastern/Greek orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45-46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.

Forget about Islamic terrorists for a minute. The most famous theologian John Calvin killed many people and banned his opponents. Do you think he will be in hell forever? Or recent saints who advocate against Covid vaccine and for deworming meds, resulting in many dead people, will they be in hell forever?

John Calvin justified killing his theological opponents with the Bible

 

[Der Alte]

Forget about Islamic terrorists for a minute. The most famous theologian John Calvin killed many people and banned his opponents. Do you think he will be in hell forever? Or recent saints who advocate against Covid vaccine and for deworming meds, resulting in many dead people, will they be in hell forever?
John Calvin justified killing his theological opponents with the Bible

I'm a big John Wayne fan. He and John Ford made 3 movies where the Duke was a cavalry officer. In one of them, can't remember which, whenever the Duke asked trooper Tyree, Ben Johnson, for advice Tyree would answer, "That ain't my department Sir, but I think..."
God said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy."
We all might be surprised at who we see and don't see when we get there.

 

[public hermit]

We all might be surprised at who we see and don't see when we get there

Yes, but why limit the surprise's possibility? Would it be a surprise or a disappointment if everyone is there?

 

[Der Alte]

Your movie mention reminds me that the "hell" crowd counts their proof texts over and over and never realizes that the most important prop of "that place" is fiction, from the epic poetry of Dante and Milton to the horror-prose of Mary K Baxter. We can add to that movies ("Little Nicky" comes to mind) and cartoons (animated and non-animated). Add to that, jokes and the like. As ever, don't forget the "hel" of Norse mythology...more fiction.

This post is so full of nonsense it's difficult to decide which piece of rubbish to address first.
I have shown conclusively, from Jewish sources, several times, that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment which the Jews, themselves called sheol and Ge Hinnom, translated as Hades and Gehenna, respectively in the 225 BC LXX and the NT. My math ain't all that good but I think the Jewish belief preceded Dante by about a good 16 centuries.
What a word might have meant in some other country, 100s of years ago is about as irrelevant as mammaries on a boar hog. Even in English words change over time. The English word "truck" originally meant vegetables not a big boxy vehicle for hauling large heavy loads.
Nobody today thinks of potatoes when they hear the word "truck." How many people do you know of think of a Norwegian deity when they hear the word "hell?"

 

[hedrick]

This post is so full of nonsense it's difficult to decide which piece of rubbish to address first.
I have shown conclusively, from Jewish sources, several times, that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment which the Jews, themselves called sheol and Ge Hinnom, translated as Hades and Gehenna, respectively in the 225 BC LXX and the NT. My math ain't all that good but I think the Jewish belief preceded Dante by about a good 16 centuries.
What a word might have meant in some other country, 100s of years ago is about as irrelevant as mammaries on a boar hog. Even in English words change over time. The English word "truck" originally meant vegetables not a big boxy vehicle for hauling large heavy loads.
Nobody today thinks of potatoes when they hear the word "truck." How many people do you know of think of a Norwegian deity when they hear the word "hell?"

Among Christians today I think the pit in the Revelation, together with the fires and worms, are what people think of.

 

[Der Alte]

Among Christians today I think the pit in the Revelation, together with the fires and worms, are what people think of.

I as well. Also Luke 16:19-31 gives us fairly good view.

 

[Lazarus Short]

This post is so full of nonsense it's difficult to decide which piece of rubbish to address first.
I have shown conclusively, from Jewish sources, several times, that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment which the Jews, themselves called sheol and Ge Hinnom, translated as Hades and Gehenna, respectively in the 225 BC LXX and the NT. My math ain't all that good but I think the Jewish belief preceded Dante by about a good 16 centuries.
What a word might have meant in some other country, 100s of years ago is about as irrelevant as mammaries on a boar hog. Even in English words change over time. The English word "truck" originally meant vegetables not a big boxy vehicle for hauling large heavy loads.
Nobody today thinks of potatoes when they hear the word "truck." How many people do you know of think of a Norwegian deity when they hear the word "hell?"

Your post is so full of lack of understanding that it's probably just sidestepping into territory you are familiar with. I'm not surprised anymore with your tactics, but I see what you did there: unable to answer about "hell" in popular culture, you just slide into the mode you are most comfortable with. BTW, I suppose you're unaware that SOME English words have not changed much, like "blood" and "hell."

 

[ozso]

Your movie mention reminds me that the "hell" crowd counts their proof texts over and over and never realizes that the most important prop of "that place" is fiction, from the epic poetry of Dante and Milton to the horror-prose of Mary K Baxter. We can add to that movies ("Little Nicky" comes to mind) and cartoons (animated and non-animated). Add to that, jokes and the like. As ever, don't forget the "hel" of Norse mythology...more fiction.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, but why limit the surprise's possibility? Would it be a surprise or a disappointment if everyone is there?

I have a theory that everyone will be surprised at where they end up. (exaggeration for effect)
Many who think they have it made will require some fine tuning. And some that think they haven't got a prayer will be welcomed with open arms.

Matthew 21:31 NIV
... Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.