Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Lazarus Short]

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the NT?

EOB Matthew 25 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]
1cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2o11). The Eastern/Greek orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45-46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

Link: [EOB online]
When Jesus said "αιωνιον/aionios" He meant eternal, everlasting, for ever.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,”, twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life. No ifs, ands or buts.

Corrupted, badly translated, Latin-based Bibles said it, I don't believe it, and it is far from settled. I submit this very thread as evidence that it is not settled. The rest of your post is sophistry, IMHO. As you have said yourself, you mostly post pre-digested files of your stock answers. The problem is that you no longer need to think about the issues you post about.

 

[Der Alte]

But I'm not sure that most people would want the punishment to be everlasting. We want justice but I think we also want it to be proportional to the crime and tempered with mercy.

Unfortunately God did not command that His Bible be written to appeal to the fickle sensibilities of fallible mankind.

 

[Hmm]

Unfortunately God did not command that His Bible be written to appeal to the fickle sensibilities of fallible mankind.

Justice and mercy are fickle things? And I thought that God commands us to show these qualities in our lives. Silly me.

 

[Der Alte]

Corrupted, badly translated, Latin-based Bibles said it, I don't believe it, and it is far from settled. I submit this very thread as evidence that it is not settled. The rest of your post is sophistry, IMHO. As you have said yourself, you mostly post pre-digested files of your stock answers. The problem is that you no longer need to think about the issues you post about.

.....Typical heterodox rubbish. If the Bible is "corrupted, badly translated, Latin-based" how can you tell me or anyone else anything definitively about the Bible?
.....Where did you get a Bible that is NOT corrupted, NOT badly translated, NOT Latin-based? I won't hold my breath.
.....I am retired X3 this is more or less my full time occupation. What makes you think I don't study and review my file of responses and periodically make changes, as necessary?
.....In the last few years I have spent $300-$400 dollars acquiring new, updated resources. My most recent was 3-4 months ago Origen's "Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book 13," $60, which is still in copyright.
.....While UR-ists treat Origen like the poster boy for UR. They would be surprised to read what he said about "aionios" in reference to John 4:13-14

(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[1] Pg. 80
1Origen. (1993l. Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13-32. . P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (vol. 89, pp. 67—69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​

Note, eternal life never perishes 2X, remains, not taken away, not consumed. NOT the nonsensical age during.

.

 

[Hmm]

In the last few years I have spent $300-$400 dollars acquiring new, updated resources.

I'm sure a good lawyer would be able to get most of that back for you. Worth a try anyway.

 

[Der Alte]

Justice and mercy are fickle things? And I thought that God commands us to show these qualities in our lives. Silly me.

Another UR dishonest ploy. Deliberately misrepresenting what other posters say making it appear they said something they did NOT say.
I said NOTHING about justice and mercy being fickle. Here is what I actually said

"Unfortunately God did not command that His Bible be written to appeal to the fickle sensibilities of fallible mankind."​

If you can't be honest about what is directly in front of you how can you be honest about anything else?

 

[Hmm]

Another UR dishonest ploy. Deliberately misrepresenting what other posters say making it appear they said something they did NOT say.
I said NOTHING about justice and mercy being fickle. Here is what I actually said

"Unfortunately God did not command that His Bible be written to appeal to the fickle sensibilities of fallible mankind."​

If you can't be honest about what is directly in front of you how can you be honest about anything else?

Are you accusing me of being dishonest? Give me your honest answer please, no prevarications.

 

[Der Alte]

Are you accusing me of being dishonest? Give me your honest answer please, no prevarications.

Where did I use the words "You are dishonest?"
Once again here is what I said,

"Another UR dishonest ploy. Deliberately misrepresenting what other posters say making it appear they said something they did NOT say."​

Perhaps you have some way of saying that you implying I said "Justice and mercy are fickle things." was not dishonest?

 

[Hmm]

Where did I use the words "You are dishonest?"
Once again here is what I said,

"Another UR dishonest ploy. Deliberately misrepresenting what other posters say making it appear they said something they did NOT say."​

Perhaps you have some way of saying that you implying I said "Justice and mercy are fickle things." was not dishonest?

You said this:

If you can't be honest about what is directly in front of you

So I'll repeat my question.

 

[Der Alte]

You said this:
So I'll repeat my question.

You wrote a deliberately false statement about me. It is deliberate since you have made no attempt to correct the false statement.

 

[Lazarus Short]

.....Typical heterodox rubbish.

I expected something like that. As far as non-corrupted Bibles go, I have been exploring some on the "no hell Bible" list. So far, I have a YLT which I have not read, as the print is just too tiny for my 71 year old eyes. I did read all of the Ferrar Fenton Bible, where there is cause for eye-rolling...and sometimes breathtaking wonder. Currently, I'm reading a version calling itself simply "The Scriptures." I like it, but it takes some getting used to.

 

[Der Alte]

I expected something like that. As far as non-corrupted Bibles go, I have been exploring some on the "no hell Bible" list. So far, I have a YLT which I have not read, as the print is just too tiny for my 71 year old eyes. I did read all of the Ferrar Fenton Bible, where there is cause for eye-rolling...and sometimes breathtaking wonder. Currently, I'm reading a version calling itself simply "The Scriptures." I like it, but it takes some getting used to.

That is a novel approach, find a version that you like and decide that it is uncorrupted.

Robert Young (1822-1888) was a Scottish editor and publisher who became proficient in several ancient languages through self-study. Earnest students of the Holy Scriptures, through the years, have considered Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (YLT) [1898] an excellent, literal, translation. The YLT is a strictly literal and idiomatic rendering of the Original Greek Texts.The Greek Text followed is that generally recognized as the "Received Text," or the "Textus Receptus," from which the King James Version was translated.
Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (YLT - Olive Tree Bible Software​

 

[Andrewn]

Merry Christmas to all. Best wishes.

 

[Hmm]

Merry Christmas to all. Best wishes.

I had to look that word up but it was very well chosen. Merry Christmas to you too Andrew!

A Christmas cracker joke today:
Why does Father Christmas have three gardens?
So he can "hoe-hoe-hoe!"

Quality!

 

[Saint Steven]

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Wow. That post was a tall glass of water. - lol
Nice. A full post for a God who is FULL of MERCY.

 

[Gundy22]

"You will never get out UNTIL you have paid the last penny."
(But there is a point in time when the last penny is paid.)
Beaten with few stripes - beaten with many stripes - in those cases there is still ultimately a LAST STRIPE.
Aionian time can be looked at til one is blue in the face - but there are indicators that denote PERPETUITY other than aionian -

"worm dieth not" "fire that is never quenched". Not much wiggle room there.

ECT is not pleasant to think about. Best to AVOID IT (by believing in Christ and not going to hell) - not try to talk it into non-existence.

 

[hedrick]

But I'm not sure that most people would want the punishment to be everlasting. We want justice but I think we also want it to be proportional to the crime and tempered with mercy.

I think that depends upon the person.

What was an advantage for centuries has turned into one of the two most serious objections to Christianity, the other being the problem of evil. But there are at least possible answers to the problem of evil. I don't know of one to ECT.

However that seems to be a modern perspective. Given Jesus' teaching about God, I'm mystified why it's only recently that ECT seems to have become a widespread problem.

 

[Gundy22]

Luk 16:27

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luk 16:28

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luk 16:29

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luk 16:30

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luk 16:31

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Whether this is a parable or not - it does not matter. Jesus gives vivid descriptions of consciousness after death on the part of rich man, beggar Lazarus and Abraham. The TORMENTS is real and to be avoided. It is never said that it will come to an end.

Like other issues such as annihilation or soul sleep - verses can be found on both sides. We must go with the preponderance of the evidence. Eternal Conscious Torment is not something we should simply say "oh, it would be better for Christianity if it did not exist".

Though the UR-ists will continue to look for a loophole - I don't think one can be found.

Mar 9:44

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:46

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:48

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[Gundy22]

I think that depends upon the person.

What was an advantage for centuries has turned into one of the two most serious objections to Christianity, the other being the problem of evil. But there are at least possible answers to the problem of evil. I don't know of one to ECT.

However that seems to be a modern perspective. Given Jesus' teaching about God, I'm mystified why it's only recently that ECT seems to have become a widespread problem.

Is it "only recently"? I dunno.

 

[Der Alte]

I expected something like that. As far as non-corrupted Bibles go, I have been exploring some on the "no hell Bible" list. So far, I have a YLT which I have not read, as the print is just too tiny for my 71 year old eyes. I did read all of the Ferrar Fenton Bible, where there is cause for eye-rolling...and sometimes breathtaking wonder. Currently, I'm reading a version calling itself simply "The Scriptures." I like it, but it takes some getting used to.

Still searching for the perfect UR Bible? What's wrong with the Eastern Greek Orthodox version which I have quoted a few times?
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the NT?

EOB Matthew 25 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]
1cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2o11). The Eastern/Greek orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45-46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

Link: [EOB online]