Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

I think the point he was making is that Adam brought death, but we die because we participate via sin. Similarly Christ brought life, but we participate through faith. So the asymmetry is because all sin but not everyone has faith.

Paul would almost certainly agree with all of that. But I think that may be a little too neat for this text. Commentators seem a bit vague, though most agree that he wasn’t fully universalist. I think a common explanation would be that Christ was a new beginning bringing a new era where all are saved, but some people are still part of the Adam era. I’m still not sure a full universalist reading is impossible for Paul, but it’s harder to see it for Jesus. Moo adopts an explanation similar to my two eras, but notes that a number of scholars do accept the full universalist reading. He rejects it, not because it doesn’t fit this passage, but because others contradict it. For that we’d need to look at the others to see if he’s right. However I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that Paul thinks the wages of sin are in fact death, and only through Christ will we live. I.e. resurrection only for those in Christ. You might consider this annihilationism, but that’s not Pauline language. I’d say something more selective resurrection.

In Romans, 11:32 is also necessary to look at.

The universalist position is that eventually all will be in Christ. All the same rules apply. The difference is others will come to Christ in the age(s) to come. I don't know if that's the way it will actually work out. I just know that's how it's supposed to work out according to UR.

Is Moo short for Moody?

 

[Saint Steven]

NRSV, NIV, HCSB, KVJ all translate as parallel. So do the three commentaries I checked. They agree that it means all who are in Christ, but they think it’s a matter of context, not grammar.

Are commentaries infallible? (nope) Biased? (yup) Useful? (doubtful)

1 Corinthians 2:13 NIV
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

John 14:26 NIV
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

[Andrewn]

While it’s not logically impossible for the reverse, I’m not aware of anyone who thinks it would happen.

The devil and his demons fell from eternal life into eternal damnation.

 

[Saint Steven]

So much for reading the Bible at face value.

Right. Only the denominational doctrines of well-known theologians can be trusted. (sigh)

 

[Saint Steven]

Commentators seem a bit vague, though most agree that he wasn’t fully universalist.

Horrors! Anything but that! - lol

 

[Andrewn]

However, not meaning to be rude, I don't think you'll ever give a straightforward A or B answer. Based on past experience, I expect you'll give a convoluted explanation as to why it's not as simple as A or B.

Men are like waffles--Women are like spaghetti.

https://www.amazon.ca/Men-Like-Waffles-Women-Spaghetti-Understanding/dp/0736968881

 

[Lazarus Short]

Before I logged onto CF this morning, I was thinking, why not turn turn the thread title on its head? Like so:

"Christian Damnationism. What's to Like?"

I can't think of anything. Maybe someone can supply it...

 

[Saint Steven]

Before I logged onto CF this morning, I was thinking, why not turn turn the thread title on its head? Like so:

"Christian Damnationism. What's to Like?"

I can't think of anything. Maybe someone can supply it...

Agreed.
They fight tooth and claw to defend hell. When asked what they like so much about it, they have nothing to say.

As I have said before, "If they want hell, we should give it to them." - lol

 

[hedrick]

Before I logged onto CF this morning, I was thinking, why not turn turn the thread title on its head? Like so:

"Christian Damnationism. What's to Like?"

I can't think of anything. Maybe someone can supply it...

Judgement is good. We want God to defeat evil. And we want him to uphold justice. Many people think justice means punishing the wicked. This is a view with reasonable support in Scripture.

 

[hedrick]

Right. Only the denominational doctrines of well-known theologians can be trusted. (sigh)

When commentators who are otherwise pretty liberal think Paul doesn't really intend universalism, it's got to make you wonder. I don't think academics are automatically right, but they've certainly studied Greek grammar, the 1st Cent background, and Paul's theology in general more than I have.

 

[Saint Steven]

When commentators who are otherwise pretty liberal think Paul doesn't really intend universalism, it's got to make you wonder. I don't think academics are automatically right, but they've certainly studied Greek grammar, the 1st Cent background, and Paul's theology in general more than I have.

Yes, but have they studied first Corinthians chapter fifteen and Romans chapter five? - lol
I think Paul wrote those.

 

[hedrick]

Yes, but have they studied first Corinthians chapter fifteen and Romans chapter five? - lol
I think Paul wrote those.

Yes, they have. They think 1 Cor 15 is really only talking about what happens to Christians. There's some evidence in the context for that. The issue he's dealing with is people having confidence in what will happen to Christians who have died already.

Rom 5 is a bit more difficult, but it is looking at the wider context of justification, and that's always for those with faith.

 

[hedrick]

The reason this issue is heated is because it is tied to the question of the purpose of Christianity. I think for Paul and John it was eternal life. Implicit in this is that without faith you don’t get eternal life, though it's clearly possible to challenge that.

That changed in the later Church to avoiding hell.

I think universalism is more of a threat to that, because if there isn’t a really horrible hell, there’s no point to all this going to church and treating people well.

I find it harder to read Jesus. He certainly used threats of judgement, but escaping judgement didn’t seem like his goal. For him the Kingdom was a pearl of great price, valuable in its own right. That’s certainly how I feel about it. I mean eternal life is good, but to me the Kingdom here now is worth having, and I think the way Jesus taught us to live is a good thing — not something to be endured to avoid hell.

But I don’t know that you can really sustain a religion that way. Certainly the Church seems always to have been attracted either by the prospect of eternal life or avoiding hell. If Jesus had died in his sleep and not been resurrected I think it's questionable whether Christianity would exist.

 

[Der Alte]

So much for reading the Bible at face value.

Try this. "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense." The converse is "If the plain sense does not make good sense, one should seek another sense." But for UR-ists just because it does not support UR assumptions/presuppositions that does not make it nonsense.

 

[Saint Steven]

Rom 5 is a bit more difficult, but it is looking at the wider context of justification, and that's always for those with faith.

Yes, but doesn't the question of "When?" still remain?
And frankly, since when does our justification hinge on us?

1. Romans 4:25
   He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
   
   
2. Romans 5:16
   Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

 

[Der Alte]

There you go.
"15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"
"18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."
I'm not sure how it could appear any more conclusive than that.

My response to and earlier post. For you to ignore again

More heterodox nonsense.
Paul used the word " πολλοι/polloi"/"many," 71 times.
Paul used the word "πας/pas"/"all," 375 times
When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas," not "polloi"/”many.”
Paul used “oi polloi”/”the many” 12 times where it clearly does not mean "all."
Romans 12:5, Romans 15:22-23, Romans 16:2,1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13
In one verse 1 Cor 10:33 Paul used “the many,” once, and “all,” twice, in the same verse.

1 Corinthians 10:33
33 Even as I please all [παντα] men in all [πασιν] things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many [των πολλων], that they may be saved.​

Paul certainly did not please every person alive during his lifetime.
Paul certainly did not please all men in literally all things.

 

[Hmm]

I think universalism is more of a threat to that, because if there isn’t a really horrible hell, there’s no point to all this going to church and treating people well.

That is frequently said and I guess if the main benefit you get from Christianity is that you avoid an eternal hell then you're going to defend the concept at all costs because otherwise what has been the point of your faith and all the time and effort you've invested in "being a Christian"?

I find it harder to read Jesus. He certainly used threats of judgement, but escaping judgement didn’t seem like his goal. For him the Kingdom was a pearl of great price, valuable in its own right. That’s certainly how I feel about it. I mean eternal life is good, but to me the Kingdom here now is worth having, and I think the way Jesus taught us to live is a good thing — not something to be endured to avoid hell.

Absolutely.

But I don’t know that you can really sustain a religion that way. Certainly the Church seems always to have been attracted either by the prospect of eternal life or avoiding hell.

But is the church really doing that well trying to sell a message like ECT that most people find abhorrent?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Judgement is good. We want God to defeat evil. And we want him to uphold justice. Many people think justice means punishing the wicked. This is a view with reasonable support in Scripture.

The Scriptures also have much to say about mercy:

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

James 2:13
For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Psalm 145:8
The Lord is gracious and merciful;
Slow to anger and great in lovingkindness.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Psalm 100:5
For the Lord is good;
His lovingkindness is everlasting
And His faithfulness to all generations.

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your God?

Colossians 3:12
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

Lamentations 3:23
They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.

Ephesians 2:4
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Hosea 6:6
For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice,
And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Daniel 9:9
To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him;

Hebrews 4:16
Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Psalm 136:1
Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

2 John 1:3
Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Romans 9:18
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Jude 1:2
May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you.

Psalm 103:11
For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him.

Luke 1:50
And His mercy is upon generation after generation
Toward those who fear Him.

Exodus 20:6
...but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Lamentations 3:22
The Lord’s lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,
For His compassions never fail.

Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Psalm 145:9
The Lord is good to all,
And His mercies are over all His works.

2 Samuel 24:14
Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let us now fall into the hand of the Lord for His mercies are great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man.

Deuteronomy 4:31
For the Lord your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.

1 Chronicles 16:34
O give thanks to the Lord, for He is good;
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

Isaiah 57:1
The righteous man perishes, and no man takes it to heart;
And devout men are taken away, while no one understands.
For the righteous man is taken away from evil,

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Proverbs 28:13
He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper,
But he who confesses and forsakes them will find compassion.

Psalm 25:10
All the paths of the Lord are lovingkindness and truth
To those who keep His covenant and His testimonies.

Psalm 86:5
For You, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive,
And abundant in lovingkindness to all who call upon You.

Deuteronomy 4:31
For the Lord your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.

2 Samuel 24:14
Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let us now fall into the hand of the Lord for His mercies are great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man.




2 Kings 6:21-23

Then the king of Israel when he saw them, said to Elisha, "My father, shall I kill them? Shall I kill them?" He answered, "You shall not kill them. Would you kill those you have taken captive with your sword and with your bow? Set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink and go to their master." So he prepared a great feast for them; and when they had eaten and drunk he sent them away, and they went to their master. And the marauding bands of Arameans did not come again into the land of Israel.

Romans 12:20-21
BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Colossians 3:12
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

Zechariah 7:9
Thus has the Lord of hosts said, ‘Dispense true justice and practice kindness and compassion each to his brother;

Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity
And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession?
He does not retain His anger forever,
Because He delights in unchanging love.

Luke 1:50
And His mercy is upon generation after generation
Toward those who fear Him.

Ephesians 2:4
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Proverbs 16:6
By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for,
And by the fear of the Lord one keeps away from evil.

Psalm 61:5-7
For You have heard my vows, O God; You have given me the inheritance of those who fear Your name. You will prolong the king's life; His years will be as many generations. He will abide before God forever; Appoint lovingkindness and truth that they may preserve him.

Luke 15:18-20
'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."' "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.

2 Corinthians 2:6-8
Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority, so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.

Proverbs 14:31
He who oppresses the poor taunts his Maker,
But he who is gracious to the needy honors Him.

Daniel 4:27
Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: break away now from your sins by doing righteousness and from your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor, in case there may be a prolonging of your prosperity.

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Psalm 119:64
The earth is full of Your lovingkindness, O Lord;
Teach me Your statutes.

Psalm 108:4
For Your lovingkindness is great above the heavens,
And Your truth reaches to the skies.

Psalm 103:17
But the lovingkindness of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children’s children,

Psalm 106:1
Praise the Lord!
Oh give thanks to the Lord, for He is good;
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

Daniel 9:9
To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him;

Psalm 62:12
And lovingkindness is Yours, O Lord,
For You recompense a man according to his work.

James 3:17
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.

Psalm 25:10
All the paths of the Lord are lovingkindness and truth
To those who keep His covenant and His testimonies.

Psalm 37:26
All day long he is gracious and lends,
And his descendants are a blessing.

Lamentations 3:22-23
The LORD'S lovingkindnesses indeed never cease, For His compassions never fail. They are new every morning; Great is Your faithfulness.

Proverbs 12:10
A righteous man has regard for the life of his animal,
But even the compassion of the wicked is cruel.

Proverbs 11:17
The merciful man does himself good,
But the cruel man does himself harm.

Zechariah 7:9
Thus has the Lord of hosts said, ‘Dispense true justice and practice kindness and compassion each to his brother;

Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Proverbs 3:3
Do not let kindness and truth leave you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart.

Romans 12:8
...or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Genesis 39:21-23
But the LORD was with Joseph and extended kindness to him, and gave him favor in the sight of the chief jailer. The chief jailer committed to Joseph's charge all the prisoners who were in the jail; so that whatever was done there, he was responsible for it. The chief jailer did not supervise anything under Joseph's charge because the LORD was with him; and whatever he did, the LORD made to prosper.

Luke 10:37
And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

Judges 1:23-26
The house of Joseph spied out Bethel (now the name of the city was formerly Luz). The spies saw a man coming out of the city and they said to him, "Please show us the entrance to the city and we will treat you kindly." So he showed them the entrance to the city, and they struck the city with the edge of the sword, but they let the man and all his family go free. read more.

Hosea 12:6
Therefore, return to your God,
Observe kindness and justice,
And wait for your God continually.

Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Joel 2:13
And rend your heart and not your garments.”
Now return to the Lord your God,
For He is gracious and compassionate,
Slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness
And relenting of evil.

Joshua 6:25
However, Rahab the harlot and her father’s household and all she had, Joshua spared; and she has lived in the midst of Israel to this day, for she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.

Isaiah 60:10
Foreigners will build up your walls,
And their kings will minister to you;
For in My wrath I struck you,
And in My favor I have had compassion on you.

Psalm 123:2
Behold, as the eyes of servants look to the hand of their master,
As the eyes of a maid to the hand of her mistress,
So our eyes look to the Lord our God,
Until He is gracious to us.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Ephesians 2:4
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Genesis 19:16
But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of the Lord was upon him; and they brought him out, and put him outside the city.

2 John 1:3
Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Psalm 136:17-20
To Him who smote great kings,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting,

1 Samuel 11:13
But Saul said, “Not a man shall be put to death this day, for today the Lord has accomplished deliverance in Israel.”

Romans 12:1
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

Psalm 72:13
He will have compassion on the poor and needy,
And the lives of the needy he will save.

Psalm 106:46
He also made them objects of compassion
In the presence of all their captors.

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

 

[Der Alte]

Before I logged onto CF this morning, I was thinking, why not turn turn the thread title on its head? Like so:
"Christian Damnationism. What's to Like?"
I can't think of anything. Maybe someone can supply it...

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the NT?

EOB Matthew 25 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]
1cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2o11). The Eastern/Greek orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45-46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

Link: [EOB online]
When Jesus said "αιωνιον/aionios" He meant eternal, everlasting, for ever.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,”, twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life. No ifs, ands or buts.

 

[Hmm]

Judgement is good. We want God to defeat evil. And we want him to uphold justice. Many people think justice means punishing the wicked. This is a view with reasonable support in Scripture.

But I'm not sure that most people would want the punishment to be everlasting. We want justice but I think we also want it to be proportional to the crime and tempered with mercy.